The Fabelmans (w/ Jeffrey Overstreet)

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It wasn't closely.
What's the secret?

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Thing.
Just got to find something you

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love to do and then do it for
the rest of your life.

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I don't want to be a product of
my environment, I want my

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environment to be a product of
me.

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Hello and welcome to the
establishing shot, a podcast

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where we do deep dives and two
directors and their

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filmographies.
I am your host Eli Price and we

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are here on episode 115 of the
podcast.

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We are.
It's, it's been a long time

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coming, but we're finally
covering Spielberg's last film

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as of now at the Fablemen's.
So I'm excited to jump into that

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today.
But before I do, I want to

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welcome a first time guest.
We have Jeffrey Overstreet

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joining us for the first time.
Jeffrey, how's it going?

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It's going very, very well and
it's good timing to talk about

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this movie.
So thanks for thanks for having

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me on.
It's a pleasure.

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Yeah, yeah.
Well, before we do that, I

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always love to get get people
plugged into what my guests have

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going on.
Whatever projects you have out

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now or coming out soon or or old
projects you want to plug.

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But yeah, just if you want to
give an overview of just who you

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are and what you do and work,
people can find your work.

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Well, there are many branches
to.

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What's going on with me right
now?

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The the branch that's probably
most on my mind today is that

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school is about to start and I
am an associate professor of

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English and writing at Seattle
Pacific University.

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So I have some syllabuses or, or
syllabi depending on which

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version you choose to revise in
the next few days to get ready

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for the classes that start in
two weeks.

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One of which will will be a film
class called Film and faith,

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where we watch great films from
all over the world over the last

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50 years.
And then, and then we explore

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what's possible when we approach
those films with questions about

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faith.
They aren't necessarily

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explicitly faith related films,
but we watch all kinds of great

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stuff.
And I, I always look forward to

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that class.
So that that's very much on my

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mind right now.
But I am a teacher because I was

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a writer 1st and I grew up
writing fiction and I have a

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series of fantasy novels called
the Aurelia Thread that have

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been around for a while now.
They came out between those four

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books, came out between 2007 and
2011.

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But that was the dream for me as
a kid was to be a fantasy writer

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and following the footsteps of
my my heroes like Tolkien and

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Lewis and Madeline L'engle and
Richard Adams.

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Yeah.
So that's a, that's another

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branch.
But film criticism is something

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I was already doing in high
school.

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I did for my college newspaper.
And soon after I graduated from

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college, I got a call from
Christianity Today.

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They had seen some things I was
doing online.

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And they said we don't want to
do the typical Christian media

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thing of approaching movies as
something families need to be

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afraid of.
We don't want to.

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We don't want to treat movies
with like lists of things that

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could be harmful.
We want to approach them

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respectfully with curiosity as
works of art and find out, you

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know, anything that's true or
anything that's beautiful.

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We believe that's that's God's
territory.

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And that's what I believe as
well.

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So I got to write about movies
and my love for movies of all

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kinds for Christianity Today for
about 10 years and had a column

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there and got all kinds of
wrathful, judgmental emails

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every week from from Christians
who are afraid of culture and

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the world and who think movies
are toxic.

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So that was a very formative
experience for me.

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I moved on from there to write
about film for Image Journal.

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And then I have some websites
where I I can write when I want

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to as much as I want to.
The main one is called Looking

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Closer, so go to
lookingcloser.org.

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That website is like a creaky
old ship.

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It's starting to fall apart.
I'm working on getting ready to

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relaunch it on a new platform,
but you can still access many,

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many years of reviews and
archives there.

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I'm also on Sub stack now.
I have a site there called Give

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Me Some Light, which Shakespeare
fans will know what that's from

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and and what that's about.
But I've been posting a lot

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there in the last couple of
years.

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But all of this is leading to
the other thing that's been most

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on my mind next to school, and
that is that I have a book

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coming in May.
This will be my second book

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about film.
The first one came out in 2007,

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was called Through a Screen
Darkly, and it was very much my

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attempt after all of those angry
emails from readers at

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Christianity Today, my attempt
to kind of justify the ways of

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movies to readers, especially to
Christian readers, to help them

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fear not, which is the most
repeated refrain in all the

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Scriptures.
And so it seems important to pay

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attention to that one.
This book, Lost and Found in the

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Cathedral of Cinema, is a memoir
about how over the course of my

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life, there has always been a
movie or several helping me sort

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of sort out what I really
believe about God, about human

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nature, about the world.
And it's it's sort of a, a

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discernment process over the
course of the book.

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I'm weighing the things I've
heard in church as a small child

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and then thinking about the the
film Pinocchio or thinking about

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the film The Many Adventures of
Winnie the Pooh.

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And then on into adolescence
with films like Moonrise

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Kingdom, Watership Down, The
Black Stallion, Dead Poet

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Society, Do the right thing, on
into adulthood to movies like

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Patterson and the Tree of Life.
And even in fact, the last film

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in the book that the last film I
discussed in the book is Marcel

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the Shell with Shoes On.
Oh, yeah.

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Not necessarily films that would
spring to mind if you're

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thinking about faith formation,
but but that's how it worked for

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me and that's how it has worked
for me over the course of my

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life.
So it's about how movies helped

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me sort of separate true faith
from the distortions that have

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crept into Christianity and
helped me find what I really

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believe and, and what I need to
leave behind.

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So we've been, we've been
hearing the word deconstruction

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a lot these days in terms of
faith.

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So I guess it is sort of a
deconstruction story, but it's

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not just about leaving
something, it's about

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discovering something.
It's AI was warned that movies

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would ruin my faith, and in
fact, movies strengthened by

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faith.
So Lost and Found at the

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Cathedral Cinema is coming out
in May and we're doing the the

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last copy edits on the typeset
file this week.

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Just today I received the
introduction written by Matt

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Zoeller Sites, the editor at
rogerebert.com.

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So I'm very excited to get to
share that with the world here

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in several months.
Yeah, that's exciting that that

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sounds very similar to like my
experience with just what movie,

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what films have done for me.
And even like some of the ones

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you've named are a bit like a
Patterson's My Favorite Jim

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Jarmusch movie.
Yeah.

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Yeah, Tree of Life is my
favorite Malik and I love, I

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even love Marcel the Shell with
Shoes On.

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It was one of my favorite movies
that year, so.

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Yeah, yeah.
In fact, that came out the year

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of the Fablemans.
Yeah, Yeah, that's true.

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I think the Fableman's ended up
at #5 on my list that year and

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Marcel was #1.
There you go.

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But it's good we're talking
about the Fableman's because

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it's a similar kind of thing,
right?

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It's a movie about how how
movies shaped somebody and how

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how how creativity and art
making became the way that that

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person processes what they're
what they've experienced.

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So.
Yeah, yeah.

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And I even think reminded of
this, there's a really good

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George Miller quote that I don't
have in front of me, so I'm not

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going to be able to actually
give the quote.

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But he's he talks about how
cinema has become the new

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cathedral.
Basically, it's become the new

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church that people go to, to
have communal experiences that

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are transcendent.
And it's a it's a good quote.

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I wish I had the actual quote in
front of me.

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I'll have to send it to you
later when I can find it.

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Yeah, that that idea goes goes
way back.

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I think it would had been around
even before the filmmaker Ingmar

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Ingmar Bergman talked about how
even though he didn't, does not

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or did not identify as a
Christian or, or as a as a as a

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person of faith, he was much
more a skeptic.

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But he he, he too wrote that art
lost much of its resonance and

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power when it formally divorced
itself from religion.

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And he he was pointing to like
the great cathedrals of the

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world.
I mean, we don't see any

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architecture like that in the
world.

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Anything is extravagant and
complex and beautiful.

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And then those things still draw
people from all over the world

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all the time.
And when it just became about

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self-expression, he says we lost
something.

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And so he said, I always aspire,
even as a skeptic, I aspire to

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contribute something to the
cathedral.

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He understands that he wants to
be a part of something bigger

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than himself.
And like, like you with the

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George Miller quote, I don't
have it right on the tip of my

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tongue or I would try to quote
it, But it's it's, it's along

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those lines.
It'll be in my book.

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You can find the whole thing
there.

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Great, great.
And I'll, I'm sure, do you have

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like a, a pre-order or a place
where like people can find it

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whenever it comes out?
Sure.

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And I'll make sure I'll link
that in the episode description.

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Yeah, Yeah, I can give that to
you.

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Basically go to go to the
website for Broadleaf Books,

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that's who's publishing it.
Cool.

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And they have a pre-order link
there.

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Of course you can find
pre-orders on on other sites.

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I'm not a big fan of what
probably springs to your mind is

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the most obvious site to go to,
right.

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But you know, if you need to go
that route, you can go that

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route.
Yeah, that's it, Won't it won't

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be too hard to find at this
point.

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Cool.
Well, Speaking of the Fablemans

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that we mentioned a minute ago,
I, I do love to hear about my

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guests kind of first memories of
the director we're discussing.

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And so, yeah, what do you
remember the first Spielberg

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movie you saw or the first time
you realized, you know, that

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Spielberg was a director or
sometimes it one comes before

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the other, but for people.
But what's what's your

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experience with Spielberg?
It's a complicated question with

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me because I was so aware of him
before I was allowed to watch

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him.
I was five years old looking or

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sitting next to my dad at the
breakfast counter looking

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through the newspaper, and the
ad for Jaws was there.

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And I agree, it's one of my
earliest memories.

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I remember seeing the picture,
you know, that iconic image of,

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of the monster rising from the
deep and the woman swimming

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across the top of the frame and
the space between them and just

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that tension.
I needed a way to resolve that

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at five years old.
And so the very first book, I'm

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going to put that in quotes that
I made as a kid, was a picture

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book of a sea monster chasing a
swimmer.

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And as you turn the pages, the
sea monster gets closer and

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closer and closer, and the jaws
are open and the teeth are

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enormous.
And then on the last page, the

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swimmer somehow inexplicably
draws a sword and turns and

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kills the beast and it sinks.
And I, that's how I resolved

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that tension.
So I mean, not to jump too far

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ahead too quickly, but you can
imagine what I was thinking

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about when I saw The Fablemans
for the first time.

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And he watches the train crash
in that film and then is

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obsessed with making something
as a way of facing his fears and

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working through them.
And so that's my first encounter

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with Spielberg, even though I
wouldn't see Jaws for probably

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10 years, I was probably, I, I
probably saw it when I was old

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enough to get babysitting jobs.
That was a big, a big turn for

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me when it came to my exposure
to movies because I would end up

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in houses where they actually
had home video and I could watch

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what they had in their
collection.

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00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,160
I'm pretty sure that's when I
saw Jaws for the first time.

227
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,280
But the big one, I, I, I
remember ads for close

228
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,400
Encounters.
Strangely, it didn't really grab

229
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,120
me, probably because by that
point I was obsessed with Star

230
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,760
Wars.
But I remember the poster for

231
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,640
Raiders of the Lost Ark, and
since George Lucas was involved

232
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,800
and I was obsessed with Star
Wars, I was very interested in

233
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,920
that.
Han Solo was my favorite Star

234
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,520
Wars character, so I was very
interested in Harrison Ford,

235
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,760
right?
So I still have in my office at

236
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,880
work that big poster that says
from the makers of Star Wars and

237
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,280
Jaws, and that original
beautiful poster of Indiana

238
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,040
Jones.
But I was not allowed to see it.

239
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,160
I was 11 years old.
I had not been allowed to go see

240
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,000
The Empire Strikes Back because
people in our church had said it

241
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,720
was, that there was an occult
influence in it.

242
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,400
And then I might end up becoming
a Buddhist or a Hindu or

243
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,440
something if I watched it.
All right.

244
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,520
Which is interesting because
when I eventually saw it, I

245
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,360
thought, wow, there's
Christianity all over this

246
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,560
thing.
But then Raiders, I was, I was

247
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,360
reading everything I could get
my hands on about it because if

248
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,320
I couldn't see the movie, sort
of like the same thing with

249
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,360
resolving the tension with the
sea monster.

250
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,240
I needed to know what it was
about and how the conflict was

251
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,800
going to be resolved.
So I remember ordering a a

252
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,000
Raiders Lost Ark storybook
through my elementary school's

253
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,960
book order program and saw lots
of images from the film there.

254
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,000
Read the story until I'd
memorized it.

255
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,360
Read the novelization of the
film, which is actually, I

256
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,400
think, more explicit than the
film itself.

257
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,440
There's actually a sex scene in
the novelization of Raiders of

258
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,880
the Lost Ark.
But the most important thing I

259
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:45,160
remember is that my 5th grade
teacher had the soundtrack, had

260
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:51,160
the score on vinyl and would
play it during our lunch breaks.

261
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,160
And I was already a big fan of
the Star Wars music and I knew

262
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,120
the name John Williams.
So I would always ask her,

263
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,040
please play this again, please
play this again.

264
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,880
And she would let me borrow the
record.

265
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,480
And eventually she approached my
parents and said, your son is

266
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,280
obsessed with this movie.
Can I show it to him?

267
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,560
I don't think.
I think he needs to see it.

268
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,240
So I'm sure this wouldn't be
allowed today, but my 5th grade

269
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,120
teacher had me over to her
apartment to watch a home video

270
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,040
to watch Avhs of Raiders of the
Lost Ark on a very small TV.

271
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,560
And that was how I saw it for
the first time.

272
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,840
And Spielberg came to rival
very, very quickly Lucas for me,

273
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,400
and then very quickly surpassed
Lucas for me as the name that

274
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,160
would most get my attention when
it came to movies.

275
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,000
And I think it stayed that way
probably all the way up through

276
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,320
high school, when just about the
time I was graduating, Indiana

277
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,040
Jones and the Last Crusade came
out.

278
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:51,320
Yeah.
So.

279
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,600
So my childhood and adolescence
both are kind of framed by

280
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,240
Indiana Jones movies.
But that was also around the

281
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,160
time that Empire of the Sun came
out.

282
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,360
A much more adult film, if you
know what I mean.

283
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,320
A much more mature story, a much
darker story, one that does not

284
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,680
have a conclusion that is
designed to satisfy an audience.

285
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,160
It's a conclusion that
challenges us and sobers us and

286
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,280
maybe breaks our hearts.
I remember seeing that with

287
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,840
friends who were Spielberg fans
and they came away complaining

288
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,720
about how well that wasn't fun.
But I came away with just, my

289
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,720
head was spinning.
I was moved.

290
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,120
I felt a little more grown up
after seeing Empire of the Sun.

291
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,760
Like.
Christian Bell's character.

292
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,560
Yeah, yeah.
I felt like I'd been told, told

293
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,040
a truth that had been kept from
me in some way.

294
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,240
Yeah.
And I see echoes or I see

295
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,840
reflections of or hear echoes of
that film all through the

296
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,360
Fablemans as well, for reasons
we can get to later.

297
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,240
But yeah, that my, my middle
school and height, well,

298
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,320
elementary, middle and high
school are all punctuated with

299
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,839
the arrival of Spielberg films.
And while I don't have any

300
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:07,960
chapters on Spielberg in the
book that's coming out, I talked

301
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,560
about him a lot in the previous
book.

302
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,480
But I could do a whole book on
growing up with Spielberg and

303
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:19,520
how these films, how these films
influenced me and gave me new

304
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,400
vocabularies for thinking about
complicated things.

305
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,800
Yeah, yeah.
That's very cool.

306
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,520
And yeah.
And I think that your story with

307
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,920
Spielberg, out of all the guests
I've had, is the most

308
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,120
appropriate probably for the
Fablemans.

309
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,080
Yeah, yeah.
You know, just that that kind of

310
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,040
growing up with those films
paralleled with, you know, the

311
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,000
the Spielberg stand in and Sammy
Fableman kind of growing up

312
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,160
making, making these particular
films he was making and, and

313
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,920
those being how he he processed
to the different stages of his

314
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,480
life.
But but yeah, but I love that.

315
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,480
Before we get to Sammy Fableman,
I do like to start back at the

316
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,640
beginning.
And this has been, this has been

317
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,000
the sort of story that
Spielberg's wanted to tell since

318
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,800
he started making movies, really
in 1978, during the production

319
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,320
of 1941, he had already
commissioned a script about his

320
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,760
youth.
It was going to be called

321
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,320
Growing Up.
It was officially announced back

322
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,560
then.
But then he ended up making ET

323
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,480
and that kind of went by the
wayside.

324
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,360
I don't know if he ever got like
a script written for that, but

325
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:38,880
it was like public knowledge.
And then there was this

326
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,760
long-awaited I'll be home script
from his sister and that never.

327
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,360
I don't I still don't think
that's ever been made either.

328
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,320
But it was a a similar thing
about their childhood.

329
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,280
And he just, I think for a long
time he was scared for a lot of

330
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,880
reasons to make this sort of
movie that was so very

331
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,880
autobiographical in a more
literal way than all of his

332
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,200
other movies, which you could
argue are all autobiographical

333
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,720
in one way or another.
Very much so, yeah.

334
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,840
But yeah, I mean, he was scared
to do it for a long time.

335
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,320
I think scared because probably
the things he would have to face

336
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,640
making it and probably probably
a little bit worried about how

337
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,920
his parents would be scrutinized
in a way.

338
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,640
So.
So jump forward to 2005.

339
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,760
On this first day of shooting
Munich, Tony Kushner, who that's

340
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,520
the first movie they worked
together on.

341
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,000
Tony Kushner asked him if he
remembered the first time he

342
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,480
wanted to be a filmmaker.
And Spielberg went on to tell

343
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,760
him the story of the camping
trip that we see in the movie.

344
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,840
And you know how he discovered
what was going on with his mom

345
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:51,360
and and their dad's best friend
through that that camping trip

346
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,080
editing.
And Kushner immediately

347
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,560
suggested that he make a movie
out of that.

348
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,960
Spielberg said maybe one day.
And so that was the that was

349
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160
kind of the launching point of
of what we get in the Fableman's

350
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,360
they Kushner was Kushner was
honestly like probably the

351
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,920
biggest proponent.
He kept bringing it back up with

352
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,280
Spielberg through their
relationship over the years.

353
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,200
And even after, after they made
Lincoln together, Kushner wrote

354
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,560
a sort of short story based on
anecdotes Spielberg had told us,

355
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,040
told him about this event and
others.

356
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,840
And.
Again, it was kind of like a

357
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,920
Spielberg's interested but
doesn't quite want to pull the

358
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,160
trigger on that yet.
It really wasn't until that

359
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,840
documentary in 2017 called
Spielberg came out that he he

360
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,040
really started feeling like he
could do it.

361
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,760
Him and his family opened up a
lot in that movie to the public.

362
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,560
And I have this quote from
Spielberg.

363
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,760
He said, quote, right after my
mother's, right after we were

364
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,720
having lunch at her restaurant
when suddenly she took my hands

365
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,360
in hers and said, Steve, why
don't you make a movie of our

366
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,600
story?
I give you, I gave you such good

367
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,080
material.
And and then his mom shortly

368
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,880
died after that at the age of
97.

369
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,360
And so, yeah, that was, I think
that after that was the moment

370
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,560
where Spielberg really started
to work toward this more

371
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,040
seriously.
Sometimes, sometimes an artist

372
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,800
needs needs to live more life
before they're ready to tell

373
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,720
tell a certain story.
I mean, if I had tried to write

374
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,080
Lost and Found in the Cathedral
of Cinema 10 years ago, it would

375
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,720
have been a very, very different
book.

376
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,920
And I'm sure if I'd waited
another 10 years, it would

377
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,920
become a very different book.
But I think all of the films

378
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,840
he's made-up to this point have
influenced the way he tells this

379
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,800
story.
Because I, I would, I would

380
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,400
guess that he would say that he
has discovered more and more

381
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,840
about himself by telling these
other stories.

382
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,200
I mean, that's just, that's the
nature of art.

383
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,000
We don't usually get good art
out of somebody who already

384
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,760
knows what they're making.
We get the best art from people

385
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,400
who are following questions and
notions and intuitions and

386
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,440
making discoveries along the
way.

387
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,720
Right.
I remember people coming to me

388
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,720
after my first novel and saying,
it's so clear to me that this

389
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,280
was, you know, this was your way
of working through the trauma of

390
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,120
the failure of your first
marriage when you were so young

391
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:14,880
in college.
And I'm, and I was just like,

392
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,280
what are you talking about?
This is a fantasy story.

393
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,480
I wasn't thinking about that.
But then I would go back and

394
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,920
look at it and go, wow, I can
really see myself sort of

395
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,560
growing up and working through a
lot of anger and working through

396
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,520
a lot of grief and working
through this sense of what am I

397
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,080
going to do with my life.
And, and now when I talk about

398
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,240
those books, I'm like, yeah, I
was clearly working through the

399
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,080
shock and the loss and the pain
of that.

400
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,280
So I'll bet even a film like
West Side Story or The BFG, when

401
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,360
he sort of revisits children's
stories for the first time in a

402
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,640
while, I'm sure, I'm sure those
were processes of growing up a

403
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,240
little bit more for him and and
gaining more perspective on

404
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520
these things.
Yeah, yeah.

405
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,200
And this, this and West Side
Story were both like long time

406
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,720
passion products.
Yeah.

407
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,280
And you know, I, I think I'm at
the end of West Side Story.

408
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,560
You know, my final thought take
away was just, you know, it's

409
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,480
never too late, you know, to
pursue that that dream you might

410
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,000
have.
Yeah.

411
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,960
It's so it's just, you know,
it's just kind of like in a

412
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,560
almost cliche way, inspirational
to see someone as old as

413
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,200
Spielberg is kind of taking on
these passion projects, you

414
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,560
know, and it makes me wonder and
get excited for whatever this

415
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,600
UFO project he's working on
could be, you know, is it the

416
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,520
one?
Is it the, is it the sort of

417
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,360
movie he's always wanted to
make?

418
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,480
But maybe he didn't pull the
trigger on with stuff like close

419
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,520
Encounters and ET, you know,
maybe held back something and

420
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,680
those that he now wants to get
out of his system so.

421
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,880
Yeah, and then there's the
remake of Bullet, which he's

422
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,120
been talking about forever, too.
And you know, when you're

423
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,040
thinking about the Fable lens
and you're thinking about the

424
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,840
portrayal of his father as a man
of science and innovation and

425
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,680
machines, you can see right
away, looking back through his

426
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,880
catalog, how important
technology is to his success and

427
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,960
to his innovation, but also his
his obsession with machines as

428
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,360
subjects themselves in front of
a camera.

429
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,760
And that takes you back to duel,
right?

430
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,200
The first, the first that he
made that or I guess it's a

431
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,960
short.
It was a feature.

432
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,720
I'm trying to remember.
I haven't seen Duel in a long

433
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:32,280
time.
Yeah.

434
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,840
It was a it was a TV movie that
he.

435
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,720
Right.
That he that he shot some extra

436
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,880
stuff for for like a little
European theater tour.

437
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,120
So.
Yeah.

438
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,000
But it was feature length from
from the get go.

439
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,960
It's it's it's it's a movie
about about vehicles as much as

440
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,920
people.
Yeah.

441
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,200
It'll be interesting to see how
a remake of that from someone

442
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,160
his age might be different from
what it would have been if he'd

443
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,000
made it as a much younger film
maker.

444
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,920
Yeah, and and what I appreciate
about Spielberg too is that I

445
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,640
know if he did finally make that
bullet film it, you know, it

446
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,160
would be partially out of kind
of AI guess like a reminiscence

447
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,720
on something he loved as a kid.
But he also he doesn't let that

448
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,920
take over is something that I've
always appreciated of about him.

449
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,920
Is he he has the nostalgia, but
he also like has the the take of

450
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,720
a modern take on things.
You know, when you think about

451
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,720
movies like the Post, that is
like a old period movie and he's

452
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,120
he's you know, he kind of has a
lot of nostalgia for 70s film in

453
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:44,520
that movie, but it's a very
modern movie in a lot of ways

454
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760
too.
And so I would be interested to

455
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,920
see, interesting to see his take
on something like Bullet because

456
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,960
of stuff like that.
Yeah.

457
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,960
But yeah, you know, with this
one, he and Kushner really

458
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,680
started working on it during the
COVID lockdown.

459
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,360
And it kind of came out of this
conversation he had with his

460
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:09,240
wife and kids that kind of kind
of going back to, you know, what

461
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,240
you were saying a minute ago of
like, this is a movie he had to

462
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,560
wait this long to make because I
asked him something that he

463
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,240
about a story he regretted not
telling yet.

464
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,240
And this is all of these life
stories are what came to mind.

465
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,240
So yeah, he he poured his heart
out to Kushner.

466
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,120
We got we got some bullet going
on outside.

467
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,720
Yeah, it's as if it's as if we
summoned the drag racers here on

468
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,560
the street outside my house.
But yeah, yeah, he poured his

469
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,960
heart out to Kushner.
Kushner drafted an 81 page

470
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,520
version of this.
And you know, then really so

471
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,800
August, in August of 2020, his
father died at the age of 103.

472
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:57,280
And then October, I mean, within
a few weeks of his father dying,

473
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,280
they begin writing the script
for this movie together.

474
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280
Spielberg and Kushner via video
conference.

475
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,200
They worked on it for about two
months, a few days a week and

476
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,680
together.
And Kushner said this, he said,

477
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,400
quote, I had never written so
fast, but I kept to that pace so

478
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,840
that Steven wouldn't flinch, UN
quote.

479
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,080
And, you know, he was worried
about him pulling punches and,

480
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,040
you know, worried about him not,
you know, not giving him what he

481
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,480
needed to really make this his
real actual story.

482
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,240
But yeah, they that's, you know,
that's the beginning of this

483
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,360
movie.
It's it's not, it's actually the

484
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:43,320
first Spielberg riding credit
since I want to say I can't, I

485
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,120
can't remember if he has writing
credit on Poltergeist.

486
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,560
So, but it seems like he might
have had a writing credit on

487
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,320
Poltergeist, which he did not
direct, depending on who you

488
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,000
talk to.
But he did the last movie he

489
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,520
wrote himself, I think was close
Encounters that he wrote and

490
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,160
directed himself.
So yeah, it's been a it's been a

491
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,520
long while since Spielberg had
wrote and directed a movie.

492
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Yeah.
I mean, you, you he kind of

493
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,960
would have to for this one.
I mean, it's it's his story.

494
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,160
It would be strange if he didn't
have writing credit on it.

495
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,280
But but as far as other crew
goes, it's kind of a lot of his

496
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,800
his common players.
Janusz Kaminsky was the director

497
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,600
of photography that he brought.
In fact, last week I said that

498
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,480
West Side Story was the last
movie Michael Kahn edited, but

499
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,480
he did bring him out of
retirement for this to to work a

500
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,960
little bit on it.
Sarah Brochure was the main

501
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,440
editor on this.
But I think Michael Kahn did do

502
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,080
some work as well.
You know, this this being just

503
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:56,080
an important film, not just for
him, but for, you know, his his

504
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,280
common collaborators that he's
had for so many years and that

505
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,960
if worked with him that have
known his parents when they've,

506
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,560
you know, come to visit him on
set and stuff.

507
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,360
And you know, this meant a lot
to them as well.

508
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,000
Guys like John Williams, who was
kind of semi retired at the

509
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,160
time.
I think I think John Williams

510
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,360
was like 90 years old at this
point.

511
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,720
Yeah.
Rick Carter, Production designer

512
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,160
is has been his probably most
common production designer over

513
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,840
the years.
So a lot of guys that he's just

514
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,760
worked with for a long time on
this film.

515
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,840
If you're interested in
specifics on John Williams

516
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,080
involvement in this, in this
particular film, there's a

517
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,160
wonderful first book of its
kind, a new biography of John

518
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:50,800
Williams called John Williams, A
Composer's Life by Tim Grieving,

519
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,600
who writes about film music for
NPR, The New York Times.

520
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:02,000
I mean it when when a when a
great publication needs the best

521
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,200
writing on film music, they call
Tim.

522
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,200
I'm lucky enough to to know him
because I once posted maybe I

523
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,520
should say I once confessed my
that I'm a fanboy for the very

524
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,640
controversial musical score for
the fantasy film Ladyhawk from

525
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,880
the mid 80s.
A lot of people don't like that

526
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,840
score.
It has a lot of guitar solos and

527
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,680
synthesizers for a fantasy
movie.

528
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,680
I love it and I remember when I
made that comment I got a note

529
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,080
from Tim Greiving saying so glad
to find another fan of of this

530
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,720
score.
As a matter of fact, I'm writing

531
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,720
the liner notes for a deluxe
version of that score that's

532
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,760
coming out soon or that
soundtrack.

533
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,920
And that's how we met.
And we've we've kept in touch

534
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,840
over the years.
And so he's been telling me

535
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,920
about the, the, the lifelong
dream of this tribute to John

536
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,120
Williams.
And because he he planned it so

537
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120
carefully and went about
everything with such expertise

538
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,840
and professionalism and respect,
John Williams actually came

539
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,480
around to agreeing to be a part
of the project.

540
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,880
And he has many, many hours of
interviews with John Williams

541
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,040
for this book.
And there is a big section,

542
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,080
there's a section on the
Fablemans, which it's

543
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,760
interesting.
Tim Grieving is not a big fan of

544
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,200
that score and and he's sort of
stirred up some controversy by

545
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,920
some of the things he said about
why the music, why John Williams

546
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,560
music for that film really
frustrates him.

547
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,360
He thinks there should have been
a lot more of it.

548
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,320
He's really surprised by how
sparing the score is in that

549
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,080
film.
But then he shares interesting

550
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,160
perspectives from both Spielberg
and John Williams about why that

551
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,520
is.
And that's he blogged about it

552
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,400
on Substack recently.
So you can look that up and it's

553
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,160
inspiring a lot of reactions and
responses.

554
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,680
But it I was thinking a lot
about that as I revisited the

555
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,680
film today, noticing just how
much more Spielberg is allowing

556
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,960
silences and how much more he's
relying on the music of the

557
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,440
time.
Right.

558
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,560
So that's a it.
It's kind of an anomaly in

559
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,760
Spielberg's body of work that
way.

560
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,400
Yeah, yes.
I mean, he usually has Spielberg

561
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,200
is kind of notorious for the
score being almost another

562
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,240
character or, or, you know,
giving your your emotional cues

563
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,480
in the best ways, you know, most
of the time.

564
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,680
But yeah, this one, there's a
lot of pieces that his mother

565
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,120
would play kind of worked
throughout the film.

566
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,440
Probably the biggest the biggest
example of that is during that

567
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,240
kind of intercut montage of
Sammy editing the camping trip

568
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,320
and his parents in the in the
living room.

569
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,120
It's her playing this Bach Bach
concerto that she would play all

570
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,120
the time.
So there's a lot of that in the

571
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,120
movie.
That's not, you know, John

572
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,880
Williams score.
And in fact, I think I want, I

573
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,640
want to say the first time
Spielberg mentions that the

574
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,560
first time John Williams score
even comes in is when Mitzi

575
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,000
Fableman is dancing in front of
the car at the camping trip,

576
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,280
which is a long ways into the
movie.

577
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:16,000
Yeah, yeah, it works for me
because it feels like in this

578
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,120
film he wants us to be paying
attention to the things that

579
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,720
would incline him towards
certain kinds of images, certain

580
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,360
kinds of stories, certain kinds
of sounds.

581
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:34,480
And by the reverence with which
he attends to those performances

582
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,960
at the piano.
What I'm hearing and what I'm

583
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,040
seeing is young Spielberg
developing a relationship with

584
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,680
that kind of music.
And then you hear the piano

585
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,960
score for ET.
Right.

586
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,000
And the longing in the piano
score there, the longing in the

587
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,280
choral pieces, the class, the
classical choral pieces and

588
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Empire of the Sun.
And it it may just make so much

589
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,080
sense.
Yeah.

590
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,200
So I think it works for this
film.

591
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,440
Yeah, I, I, I think it does too.
It's not something that I was

592
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,920
like cued in strongly to while I
was watching the movie, but kind

593
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,560
of hearing that sort of stuff
and thinking about it in

594
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,679
hindsight, you know, I, I
appreciate that this late in his

595
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:22,639
career, you know, he's trying
new things, trying new ways of

596
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,440
using music and, and his movie.
And it's not, I would say as far

597
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,360
as John Williams scores goes,
it's it's a fine score.

598
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,520
I think it, you know, it does
its job sparingly and it doesn't

599
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,800
really it's, you know, it's
never going to be on the level

600
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,920
of like AET or Jurassic Park or
or even Empire of the Sun as you

601
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,000
just mentioned.
But, but as far as there's not

602
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,880
very many John Williams scores
that are bad, I don't know if

603
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,679
there are actually any that are
bad.

604
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:57,240
There, there are some that work
better than others, but I think

605
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,360
I think this is just one of
those that it's not distracting

606
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,160
and it does its job.
And to me that's, that's fine.

607
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:06,920
As far as the score goes, I'm
I'm happy if I don't notice the

608
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,520
score too much, but just enough
so.

609
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,440
Another thing that comes to my
mind when I think about

610
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,160
Spielberg and music that I
couldn't stop thinking about as

611
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,840
I watched this film.
I don't know if you've ever seen

612
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,440
this.
I think it's easy to find on

613
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,520
YouTube, but I wish I could
remember what year it was.

614
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,600
Spielberg appeared on Inside the
Actors Studio with James Lipton,

615
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,000
and they were sort of going over
his career up to that point.

616
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,120
And so this is the two of them.
James Lipton, who Will Ferrell

617
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,520
has famously spoofed on Saturday
Night Live, sitting across from

618
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,240
Spielberg and what?
And he'll he'll name a movie and

619
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,920
get Spielberg talking about it.
And they got to close Encounters

620
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,720
of the Third kind and got into
talking about the story.

621
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,600
And then Lipton kind of very
abruptly turned the conversation

622
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,080
and said, and I'm not going to
again, I'm not quoting.

623
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,040
I'm this is all from memory,
right?

624
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,200
But basically said, so your dad
was a scientist who worked on

625
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,520
the first personal computers and
your mother was a a concert

626
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,560
pianist.
And so your home was was very

627
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,520
divided, it seems like, between
science and art.

628
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,000
And Spielberg was like, yeah,
yeah, that's that's very, very

629
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,520
true.
And talked a little bit about

630
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,280
that.
And then Lipton says, and here

631
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:26,080
in close Encounters, when the
aliens come and everyone's

632
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,400
waiting to see what's going to
happen.

633
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,280
And moviegoers have been
conditioned to believe that

634
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,040
something terrible is going to
happen, that this mysterious

635
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,120
other from outside has come and
the world is in trouble.

636
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:47,880
But then the scientists reach
out to the aliens with music on

637
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:53,680
computers, and the aliens answer
back music on computers.

638
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,240
And it begins a conversation
that grows in harmony until

639
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:02,320
everyone is is celebrating and
everyone is laughing with joy.

640
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,600
And Spielberg's like, yeah,
yeah, that's that's what happens

641
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,160
there.
And then Lipton says, and it's

642
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,040
amazing to watch Spielberg's
face as Lipton says this.

643
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:17,240
So for you, a picture of hope is
the reconciliation of science

644
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:21,120
and art is music played through
machines.

645
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,000
What you, what you have done
there is you have presented for

646
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,920
us the longing you have had
since childhood for the reunion,

647
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,320
the reconciliation of your
father and your mother.

648
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,600
And by that point, you can see
tears in Spielberg's eyes.

649
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640
And he says, I get emotional
just talking about this.

650
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,680
He says, I have never thought
about that before.

651
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,000
And that has stuck with me as
one of the greatest examples

652
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:56,280
I've ever seen of art knowing
more than the artist of of art

653
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,240
drawing things out of the
artists that are very much

654
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,600
belong to the artist, but often
without the artist even knowing

655
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,440
what they've tapped into.
Right.

656
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,280
And I just think it's such a
profound thing.

657
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,440
And to have to have that
conversation logged now in his

658
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,640
history.
And now he makes the movie.

659
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,240
And I wonder, you know, if that
was on his mind as he is showing

660
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:24,280
us this, this young man who
clearly is an avatar of, of his

661
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,920
younger self, longing for
harmony between his mother and

662
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,360
father, but also being merciful
in his portrayal of that, that

663
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,520
tension.
I I, I think about that a lot.

664
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,600
Yeah, yeah.
And it is as you, as you were

665
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,280
getting to the the, you know,
the thing that Lipton said.

666
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,120
I was like, oh, I have seen this
before.

667
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,280
And it is a very like magical
moment of spill it dawning on

668
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,400
Spielberg.
You know what he's what he's

669
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,240
created and, you know, wrestling
with that in real time, really,

670
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,320
really cool moment.
And, you know, it is something

671
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:08,480
that, you know, in this movie.
I I think it's it's strange

672
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,760
that, you know, because at the
end of their life, his mother

673
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,760
and father were reconciled.
You know, you can see it in that

674
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,320
2017 documentary.
They're they're kind and playful

675
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,640
with each other.
In fact, Spielberg talks about

676
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,360
how his father had remarried and
after, I can't remember the

677
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,560
guy's real name, but it's the
the Uncle Benny character that

678
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,480
his mom eventually married, that
best friend of his father.

679
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:43,080
And when he died, his mom and
his father and stepmother

680
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,560
actually became really good
friends again and kept that

681
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,480
through the rest of their life.
And Spielberg even mentioned

682
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,880
that line that Burt Fableman
says at the very end, towards

683
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,440
the very end of the movie, about
how, you know, why that picture

684
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,880
got to him so deeply.
He kind of says something to the

685
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,080
effect of, you know, this.
I can't let this be the end.

686
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,600
And Spielberg mentioned how
important that line was to him

687
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,960
because of the, you know, that
it really actually wasn't the

688
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,160
end of their relationship
together.

689
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,680
That's great.
Yeah.

690
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,440
And you know, I loved that.
It's it's one of those movies

691
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,000
where, you know, a lot of times
you can get a lot out of a movie

692
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,280
just watching the movie.
And you can with this one.

693
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,720
But you also get a whole lot out
of just watching Spielberg talk

694
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,360
about the stories behind it and
giving more context to these

695
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,000
stories and and why they were
important.

696
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:38,640
So.
Yeah.

697
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:47,800
Hi, quick reminder that you yes
you can be a huge help to the

698
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,240
production of the show.
If you visit

699
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:55,400
establishingshoppod.com/donate
you'll find out how to join the

700
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,680
establishing shop family through
some giving peers starting as

701
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,480
low as $5 a month.
You heard that right, only $5.00

702
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,480
a month.
And not only will you be helping

703
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,520
me keep the show going, but
you'll also get some perks

704
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,240
yourself like early and AD free
episodes, bonus episodes, access

705
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:17,920
to a discord server where we can
chat it up about the show and

706
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,200
movies in general, and more.
Might even let you choose a

707
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,400
movie for me to review for the
show.

708
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,120
Check out that link in the show
notes to learn more.

709
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,320
Back to the show.
What did you think about the

710
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,560
kind of main actors in the in
the cast?

711
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,280
What?
What were some standouts for

712
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,880
you?
I mean, I think, I think Gabriel

713
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,200
LaBelle is such a perfect choice
for Sammy.

714
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,920
I mean, it's the, I say young,
there's a younger Sammy in this,

715
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,560
of course, sure.
But most of the time, most of

716
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,760
the, the film, LaBelle is the
lead.

717
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:57,640
And I, I think it's a perfect
choice because it should not be

718
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,080
the performer we can't take our
eyes off of.

719
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:04,120
It should not be the performer
who commands the screen every

720
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,600
time he's on the screen.
It should be someone who is

721
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:14,400
watchful and our attention goes
to whatever he is looking at or

722
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,360
whomever he is looking at.
And LaBelle is really good at

723
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,720
being quiet when he needs to be
having outbursts on occasion,

724
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,880
typically awkward outbursts that
let you know that he's much

725
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,960
better at communicating through
images than he is speaking.

726
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,560
But he there's just enough of a
resemblance to a young Spielberg

727
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,240
that I think it works.
And yet he's he's very flexible

728
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,080
too.
He does the physical comedy well

729
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,120
when he's in awkward
interactions at at school with

730
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,000
the bullies, or when he's on the
sets of his early sort of

731
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,400
experimental films.
But he's a Christian girlfriend.

732
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,400
So I think it's just, I think
that's just perfect casting

733
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,320
works much better than seeing
the same actor play Lorne

734
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,600
Michaels a few years later in
the movie about Saturday Night

735
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,200
Live.
Although I didn't think he was

736
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,800
bad in that.
I just thought that was a much,

737
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,240
that film didn't work very well.
Paul Dano was a very surprising

738
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,840
choice when I heard about the
casting for the film.

739
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,960
But I could see right away why
he cast Dano, because Dano can

740
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,640
convince you of the intensity of
the passion for technology and

741
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,280
for science and wanting to be
the best at something.

742
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,160
And there's that wonderful
conversation about how maybe the

743
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,680
problem here, I think it's.
Yeah, it's Sammy's sister who

744
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,920
observes.
It's got to be difficult for our

745
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,080
mother to be married to a
genius, knowing that she will

746
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,440
never do anything that is as
successful or as important as

747
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,080
him.
And maybe she needs a kindred

748
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,640
spirit or a soulmate or a love
that is someone with whom she

749
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,960
feels on equal ground and
important and and loved.

750
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,920
I know again, botching the the
lines.

751
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,720
But yeah, that made a lot of
sense to me.

752
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,960
And yet it would have been easy.
And maybe earlier in his life,

753
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,040
we would have gotten a different
version of the father.

754
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,640
It would have been easy to make
him seem very self absorbed and

755
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,600
and for us to get an
illustration of someone where

756
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,560
the the lines, the caricature
has been shaped with with anger.

757
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,520
And I don't think I don't think
that's the case.

758
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,280
I think we see that in other
Spielberg films earlier where

759
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,440
the father figure can be very
complicated and even off

760
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,960
putting.
Even in close Encounters of the

761
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,400
Third Kind, when the protagonist
is a father, the audience often

762
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,520
comes away from that going What
a selfish character.

763
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,800
Yeah.
And I think rightfully so here.

764
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,840
There's just so much mercy in in
the portrayal and in the

765
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,080
performance.
I think it needed that soft

766
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,360
touch that that Dano does so
well.

767
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,120
It's funny to be saying that
considering the the rage monster

768
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,160
he played in There Will Be
Blood.

769
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,080
But yeah, there's a real
sensitivity here.

770
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,560
Michelle Williams is just so
good in so many movies.

771
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:10,480
It's taken me a while to warm up
to that performance, and I think

772
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,560
it's because I think it's my
problem.

773
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,440
I don't think it's hers.
I think it's because I often

774
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,160
find myself sort of backing away
when I'm around theater kids.

775
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,240
Sure.
Because they're so flamboyant

776
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:27,160
and so expressive and so
overconfident in themselves a

777
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,560
lot of the time.
And I'm an introvert and I'm

778
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,960
insecure and I'm uncertain.
OK, so now we have a small plane

779
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,760
going over my house, which never
happens.

780
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,200
I don't know.
Maybe this is a maybe we're

781
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,920
supposed to talk about Empire of
the Sun again.

782
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,840
I don't know, maybe.
But it's it's gone now.

783
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,080
But there's a flamboyance and an
almost overconfidence to

784
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,240
Michelle Williams performance
here that the first couple of

785
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,920
times I was like, boy, she's
really going for that Oscar.

786
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,960
And the more time I've spent
with the film, the more I've

787
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,920
come to feel like, no, I think
this is probably just a very

788
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,600
honest, authentic portrayal of
what his mother was like.

789
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,440
Yeah.
And then you think about other

790
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:09,240
female leads, other other
characters in Spielberg's film

791
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,800
history, and you start to
realize how many of them were

792
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,240
probably influenced by his
mother, especially Willie in

793
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:18,960
Indiana Jones and the Temple of
Doom.

794
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:22,840
Kate Capshaw's performance
there, I started noticing right

795
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,320
away a strong resemblance
between the personality of

796
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:33,360
Mitzi, a Sammy's mother in this
film and the demeanor and

797
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,640
laughter and nervous energy of
that character in Indiana Jones

798
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,640
and the Temple of Doom.
And so again, the problem is

799
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,480
probably me.
It's probably a very strong

800
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,960
performance based on the the
likeness of Sammy's mother or of

801
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,720
of Spielberg's mother.
Yeah.

802
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,880
And maybe you can see why the
character of Sammy at at one

803
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,840
point actually, or actually, no,
it's yeah, it's Sammy.

804
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,080
But it's also the sisters who
are at times telling Mom to kind

805
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,040
of chill.
Yeah, you're right.

806
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,520
Why do you have to be the center
of attention all the time?

807
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,360
Right.
So yeah, yeah.

808
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:12,240
And so I know too.
Spielberg cast her off of this

809
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,920
TV miniseries Fosse Verdun,
which I've I've never seen.

810
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,880
I've seen pieces of it.
I have not stuck with it through

811
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,280
the whole thing, but.
Yeah, but there, you know, he,

812
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,960
the way he described it was, it
was just, there wasn't any one

813
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,640
particular thing.
It was just a feeling he got

814
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,840
from from her that reminded her
him of his mother in some way.

815
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,400
And you know, you with
Spielberg, you just got to go.

816
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:40,040
Yeah, sure.
You whatever your intuition is,

817
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,920
go with it, you know?
Yeah.

818
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,720
Yeah.
But she, she, I know she watched

819
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:50,000
a ton of his mother's like
footage of his mother over the

820
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,280
years.
You know he kind.

821
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,000
Of really is drumming on a lot
of her strengths.

822
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,040
I mean, right.
I think the first time I ever

823
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,360
really noticed Michelle
Williams, I remember her being

824
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,360
on television.
But there's a little movie

825
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,840
called The Station Agent.
That was also my introduction to

826
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,640
Peter Dinklage as a serious
actor.

827
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,600
It's become one of my favorite
films.

828
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,360
It was also my introduction to
Bobby Cannavale, who has been

829
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,920
everywhere since then.
And Patricia Clarkson.

830
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,000
Is that the name I'm looking
for?

831
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,080
The other The other actress,
yeah.

832
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,240
But Michelle Williams plays just
like a local librarian who

833
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:25,760
strangely gets like, a crush on
awkward visitor from out of

834
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,280
town, played by Peter Dinklage.
And they end up having some very

835
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,200
tender scenes together.
And I remember thinking there

836
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:36,600
there is a a warmth and a glow
and a curiosity and a just sort

837
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,200
of unselfconsciousness to this
actresses performances.

838
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,080
And then she would go on to play
Marilyn Monroe and do these

839
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,440
huge, incredibly intense,
dramatic things like Blue

840
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,240
Valentine.
Yeah.

841
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,000
So she has such incredible
range.

842
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,560
She does.
I actually just watched the the

843
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,920
Kelly Reichert film Wendy and
Lucy and she's you know, she's

844
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,320
so reserved in that and it made
me think too, I've never seen

845
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,720
Wendy and Lucy, which was a
older Reichert film, but just I

846
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,120
it might have been that same
year as 20/22 she played she was

847
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,040
in showing up where another
Reichert film where she's so, so

848
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,240
reserved.
I love that film and I love that

849
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:25,400
performance.
Another, another performance

850
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:30,040
that gets to the complicated
truths of what it's like to be

851
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,440
an artist when you're surrounded
by more more dominant

852
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,800
personalities, family crises,
and trying to stay true to your

853
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,280
calling.
It's one of my favorite films

854
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,000
about art making that I've ever
seen.

855
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,160
And yeah, I'm much more
reserved.

856
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,200
Subtle, understated performance,
but so good.

857
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,600
Yeah, maybe a good companion
movie with this.

858
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,840
Yeah, sure.
They're different in a lot of

859
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,440
ways, but touch on a lot of the
same sorts of themes of family

860
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,400
and art for sure.
Well, and Judd Hirsch in, in, in

861
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,160
in both films, right?
I didn't realize that but.

862
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:10,440
Yeah, yeah, he plays.
He plays the uncle in the

863
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,240
Fablemans.
He's the the one who kind of

864
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,880
barges into the family and and
preaches to Sammy Fableman about

865
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,760
what it is to be an artist and
how artist is going to how art

866
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,120
making is going to tear, tear
you in two and then in showing

867
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:30,000
up, he's the father.
Yeah, I think you're right.

868
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,600
Again, very brusque, very
abrasive, tends to make life

869
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,520
more complicated for people.
Yeah, he's really good at

870
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,160
playing that character.
I may be misremembering this,

871
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,080
but I seem to remember reading
the Michelle Williams asked him

872
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,320
wanted him for showing up
because they were working

873
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,680
together on the Spielberg film.
I'll have to go back and check

874
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,200
that.
Don't quote me on that, but I

875
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,560
seem to remember there being
some kind of connection there.

876
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,360
Yeah, that would make sense that
that happens a lot.

877
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,080
But yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean,
she's she has, you know,

878
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,520
Michelle Williams even talked
about she didn't just watch, you

879
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,640
know, footage of his mom.
She like obsessively watched

880
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,920
footage of Leah, Leah Spielberg
laughing because she loved her

881
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,360
laugh.
And so a lot of the a lot of the

882
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,960
her laughs in this movie are her
really doing her best trying to

883
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,600
imitate Spielberg's mother.
So yeah, I think she's really

884
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,160
good in this.
It's, you know, knowing Michelle

885
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,360
Williams range helps with kind
of pushing down that thought

886
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,800
that, oh, she's just trying to
overdo it because, you know,

887
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,440
that she doesn't have to to give
a good performance.

888
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,040
So there must be something there
that she's tapping into, trying

889
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,680
to tap into that's not just like
over performing.

890
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,640
I'm going for an Oscar sort of
thing.

891
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:45,360
Right, Right.
Yeah.

892
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,240
But yeah, going back to Gabriel
LaBelle too, I just wanted to

893
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:56,280
say Spielberg, Spielberg on
their Zoom calls, the thing that

894
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,920
stood out to Spielberg the most
was that Gabriel LaBelle would,

895
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:03,120
like, dominate their calls, just
like berating him with

896
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,200
questions.
And Spielberg was like, his

897
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:11,760
curiosity was so huge and it
reminded me so much of myself.

898
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,400
And, you know, it's it was it's
very abnormal for someone else

899
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,800
to dominate a phone call with
me.

900
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,880
And, you know, he was like,
that's that's how I knew that I

901
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,360
had cast the right person.
You know, he's Gabriel Bell

902
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,560
saying stuff like, what can I do
this your walk?

903
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,760
You, you do this Like, you know,
he named like the sort of walk

904
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,520
he does.
And spoilers like, yeah, yeah, I

905
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,680
guess you can do that because he
was trying to tell him, I don't

906
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,520
want you to imitate me.
I want you to like, you know,

907
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,200
find the character yourself.
And so Gabriel's like saying,

908
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,000
what can I do your walk?
And he's like, can I do your

909
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,520
smile?
You have this kind of this kind

910
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,000
of silly smile.
You do.

911
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,160
And Spiller was like, well,
what's silly about my spot

912
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,400
smile?
And Gala Bell's like, well, you

913
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,920
kind of have this like dead
upper lip when you smile.

914
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,440
He's like, yeah, so I thought
that was great of just.

915
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,280
And you can see it comes out in
the movie that that kind of

916
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,720
curiosity that he that he has
comes through.

917
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:11,520
And Sammy, I think as you watch
the movie, yeah, there's there's

918
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,960
a lot of great performances.
I think Seth Rogen is really

919
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,120
good in this movie.
Spielberg, Spielberg saw him as

920
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,320
a dramatic actor when he cast
them and didn't really have

921
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,320
anybody else in mind.
And Rogen has always been a guy

922
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,640
that has that in him, even if
it's not, you know, what he's

923
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,840
most known for.
I think not.

924
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,200
Not all the comedic actors do,
but he does.

925
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,360
I mean, the great comic actors
tend to have these deep wells of

926
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,360
trauma, share grief.
Not all of them.

927
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,120
I mean, I think I've heard some
wonderful conversations about

928
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,720
Steve Carell and how he seems to
be unusual this way when it

929
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:47,880
comes to leading leading men in
comedies.

930
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,600
That he doesn't have any dark
secrets or devastating losses in

931
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,880
his past that he's drawing on or
reacting to or trying to turn

932
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,800
from.
Again, forgive the background

933
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,440
noise.
I live next to a fire station

934
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,000
and things can get really.
There's.

935
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,440
Always me around here.
I'm trying to make a connection

936
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,440
to a Spielberg film here, but
these don't sound anything like

937
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,040
the spaceships in close
Encounters.

938
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,840
They don't.
There's not enough notes, there

939
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:17,680
needs to be 5.
But I I feel like this movie

940
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,200
open probably opened some doors
for Rogan because if you look at

941
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,960
what he's done since then, it's
there's always an edge of comedy

942
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,800
to what he's doing.
But he's had some pretty

943
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,800
prominent roles since then,
including like right now in that

944
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,040
series Call Is it called the
studio that he's.

945
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:34,920
Yeah, I've been wanting to to
catch up with that.

946
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,200
Yeah, yeah.
What did you think about David

947
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,840
Lynch as?
Oh boy, I'm so glad we can talk

948
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,240
about this now because when I
reviewed this and when I did my

949
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:49,560
own podcast for for subscribers
on my sub stack, the film was

950
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,400
still in theaters and I so
wanted people to be surprised by

951
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:54,600
this.
And I feel like there's been

952
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,360
enough time now we don't have to
worry about that so much because

953
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,160
every it's been so, you know,
widely talked about and we're.

954
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,440
A spoiler podcast, so.
But strikes me as maybe the

955
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,000
single most daring casting
choice in Spielberg's whole

956
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,480
career because Lynch is a big
personality.

957
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,320
And the way he talks, nobody
talks like him.

958
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,280
And I think it's such a credit
to to Spielberg and to Lynch's

959
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,400
respect for him that Lynch gives
a real performance there.

960
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,720
I mean, you can tell it's him.
You could tell it's his voice.

961
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Oh, yeah.
But he, he really adopts some

962
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,680
sort of abrasiveness that's not
typical for David Lynch.

963
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:38,360
There's the way he's smoking,
There's just the body language.

964
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:41,160
It's a, it's a, it's a great
performance.

965
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,280
It's also really a tribute to to
Spielberg's respect for Lynch

966
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:52,240
that he cast him in this role.
And as I wrote on Letterbox

967
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,320
right after I saw the film for
the first time, there's

968
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,480
something about that scene and
maybe I should frame it a little

969
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:00,880
bit more.
But we're we're near the end of

970
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,280
the film.
Sammy is already becoming an

971
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,600
accomplished young filmmaker,
but he's looking for a way in.

972
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,920
He gets ushered into
unexpectedly and abruptly

973
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,920
ushered into the office of the
great John Ford and sort of on

974
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,480
the spot, sort of like what it
must have been like for LaBelle

975
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,960
to talk to.
Spielberg has to really live up

976
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,480
to the moment and not screw this
up.

977
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,040
And John Ford is a really
brusque, abrasive personality in

978
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,840
that exchange.
But what I'm seeing as I'm

979
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:35,120
watching this, I'm it's 1979 and
I am watching Kermit the Frog

980
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,800
standing in front of Orson
Welles at the end of The Muppet

981
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,920
Movie.
Because you've got this

982
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,000
performer who has come to
Hollywood with a banjo and a

983
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,640
whole bunch of dreams and not a
whole lot of networking

984
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,320
connections to work.
And suddenly, out of the blue,

985
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,840
he finds himself in front of the
man who pulls the strings, the

986
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,680
man who can open doors.
And it's the the big bearded guy

987
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,920
behind the desk with a cigar.
And that guy looks at him and

988
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,080
says, what do you got?
And he gives him what he can.

989
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,720
And while it doesn't turn out
exactly the same way, you can

990
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:14,400
tell that that is a, a turning
point.

991
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,680
He's kind of been handed a
golden ticket from someone who

992
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,160
probably dismisses 19 out of 20
people he sees.

993
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,800
And I, I, I, I would, if, if I
ever got to interview Spielberg

994
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:34,200
and I haven't given up, I, I
would ask if, if that scene had

995
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:38,720
any influence on this one.
Because the, just the spirit of

996
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,280
the scene and the role that it
plays at the, at the conclusion

997
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,800
of this film felt so familiar.
And yet, from what I can tell,

998
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:49,880
it's based on something that
really happened too.

999
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,000
Yeah, I mean, he, if he, you
know, from interviews I've seen

1000
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,280
with him, for one thing, this
he's told the story for a long

1001
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,600
time and and it it's there's
different versions of this

1002
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,080
story.
The one we get in the movie is

1003
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,840
probably one of the more comical
versions of it.

1004
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,800
And you know, in the in the
special features for this, he he

1005
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,160
says, no, that's this is
exactly, you know how it

1006
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,280
happened, you know, almost word
for word.

1007
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,040
And but he's told it so many
different ways.

1008
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,440
You're like, well, you know,
we'll we know how memory works.

1009
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,680
But but he yeah, apparently he
was in this office.

1010
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,080
It wasn't in, it wasn't in
Hollywood like that.

1011
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:36,400
It was it was in some offices,
but it really was the Hogan's

1012
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,480
Heroes guy, the Bernie fine that
he was like, well, you shouldn't

1013
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,760
be talking to me, you should be
over here and pushes him in

1014
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:44,960
there.
He says, he says he really came

1015
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:50,320
in with lipstick, you know, on
his on his face and you know,

1016
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,240
did the whole horizon thing.
The horizon thing has always

1017
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,400
been a part of the story.
It's such a such a great line

1018
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,480
and such a profound one because
we can see the influence of that

1019
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,720
line in so many iconic scenes
throughout Spielberg's career,

1020
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,280
right?
So it's easy to believe.

1021
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,360
Yeah.
And you know, I, I loved David

1022
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,760
Lynch in this.
I've kind of, I steeped myself

1023
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,400
in Lynch earlier this year after
he passed.

1024
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,000
I kind of used that just as an
excuse to catch up with all my

1025
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,480
blind spots.
And so I was watching Inland

1026
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,120
Empire and.
I.

1027
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:33,000
Finally got around to Twin
Peaks, the return, and.

1028
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,080
Man.
And watch some of his shorts

1029
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,520
even.
And so I, I've just been steeped

1030
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:40,600
in him.
And so it was just just a breath

1031
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,040
of fresh air for me watching re
watching this and getting to see

1032
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:48,400
Lynch come in and just this
incredible artist.

1033
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,960
He didn't want to take the role
at first because he was like,

1034
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,760
I'm not an actor.
I'm not like on the level of

1035
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:58,600
John Ford and, you know, very
modest, but, you know, I think a

1036
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,160
lot of people would disagree
that he is on that master level,

1037
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,600
so.
Yeah, no, he is as influential

1038
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,280
for young film makers today and
even accomplished film makers

1039
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,920
today as Ford was for
Spielberg's generation, I think.

1040
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,280
Yeah, I think so.
In a very different way.

1041
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,880
I mean, it's hard to make many
connections between a John Ford

1042
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,360
film and a David Lynch film
unless you're watching something

1043
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:23,720
like maybe The Straight Story.
Sure, but but also it was so

1044
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,920
late in his career and he does
have that reputation and he

1045
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,600
could speak with that kind of
authority and just bring that

1046
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,960
gravitas to it.
I I thought it was just a, just

1047
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,040
a stroke of genius.
I was so delighted when I saw

1048
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,160
that it was him.
It was actually Tony Kushner's

1049
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,760
husband, Mark Harris that
suggested him, which is wild to

1050
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,760
me.
Why would he think of Lynch?

1051
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,440
You know, I would love to know
what made him think we should

1052
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,880
put Lynch in in for that role.
But I'm so glad they followed

1053
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,720
that path and and got made it
happen because it's.

1054
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:58,480
It's great.
Yeah.

1055
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,040
And the and the end of the film
really needs something that

1056
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,080
stands up with the best scenes
in the film.

1057
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,720
And it's it had to have been a
complicated thing to write

1058
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,160
because the peaks of the film
have been about the family.

1059
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,080
Right.
You can feel that the the film

1060
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,760
is a little bit in danger of
going off the rails the more it

1061
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:25,640
gets involved with the bullying
situation and the I'm going to

1062
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,160
be used Christian in quotes
Christian girlfriend.

1063
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,480
I'm not sure or what church
she's going to but it's it's

1064
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:32,840
wild.
Yeah.

1065
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,200
But there the film's in danger
there of kind of becoming a

1066
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,200
bunch of just amusing anecdotes
at that point, the the more we

1067
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,640
sort of stray from the central
family story.

1068
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,480
So to make that to give that
scene such prominence at the

1069
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,320
end, I'm sure was a
storytelling, a screen writing

1070
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,240
challenge.
But it really does work sort of

1071
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,120
as a transition that now, you
know, now he's on his own.

1072
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,040
And again, I think we might even
feel there a little bit that his

1073
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,280
dad had passed that sense of
there.

1074
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:07,480
There's a sense of freedom, not
not celebrating that well now

1075
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,800
all that's behind me, but
celebrating that my feet are

1076
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,000
under me and I'm on my way now
I'm in the door.

1077
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,440
And that, I think was that works
as a kind of a closing note

1078
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,840
that, I mean, that's not the end
of the story for Spielberg.

1079
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,160
In a sense, it's the beginning.
These are the things that

1080
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:27,240
prepared him for Jaws and and
close Encounters and Poltergeist

1081
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,120
and Raiders, etcetera.
Right.

1082
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,520
We've said very little about so
many of them so far.

1083
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,000
ET, Jurassic Park and Saving
Private Ryan, Schindler's List,

1084
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,000
But and then Hook, which has so
much autobiographical stuff in

1085
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,600
Hook, a movie I don't even like
very much.

1086
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,960
The same.
But yeah, definitely, it's

1087
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,640
definitely all there.
Maybe, you know, maybe there

1088
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:53,480
could be another I I don't think
he would make it, but but you,

1089
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,000
you know, there's a whole
second-half to the story that

1090
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,480
that's right, that that's, you
know, back to the line about the

1091
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,760
horizon that's on the horizon at
the end there.

1092
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,960
Yeah, yeah.
And I, I know there's a lot of

1093
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,840
great film makers, but I'm just
like, I don't know if anyone

1094
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,200
could or should make a film
other than Spielberg about, you

1095
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,560
know, the rest of his life.
But yeah, I I do love.

1096
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,280
So, you know, talking about like
the ends there, the end.

1097
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:27,440
And kind of like his dad passing
the that last scene between

1098
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,320
Sammy and Bert, you know, where
it kind of jumps ahead a year

1099
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,080
and they're they're in the
apartment.

1100
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:37,160
They actually shot that on the
day of Arnold Spielberg's first.

1101
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,160
It's I'm kind of probably not
pronounced this correctly.

1102
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:44,040
It's a yarzite.
It's like a it's a Jewish word

1103
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:48,520
for the anniversary of a loved
one's death, a he, I guess a

1104
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,400
Hebrew term.
But so, you know, that's

1105
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:53,080
something that is very
important.

1106
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,480
It was it had been one year
since his father died when they

1107
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,400
shot that that scene.
And Spielberg, Kushner said that

1108
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,600
Spielberg told him it was his
Qadish, which is a Jewish prayer

1109
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,360
of mourning shooting that scene.
And I thought that was really

1110
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,760
special.
And I think I think too, it's

1111
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,960
shows how it's just another
example.

1112
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,640
Spielberg processing through
films.

1113
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:19,240
It's him looking back on this
critical moment between him and

1114
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,280
his dad, where his dad finally,
you know, with some reserve,

1115
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,040
obviously, but finally, you
know, kind of gives his blessing

1116
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:31,480
in in the in the best way he
could to his choice in

1117
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,800
filmmaking.
And he's shooting that on the

1118
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,040
anniversary of his father's
death.

1119
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:40,800
And what an incredible
opportunity as an artist to be

1120
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:45,080
able to process that in that way
and celebrate, I think in a way

1121
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:49,080
to his father in that way and,
and what his father meant to

1122
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,000
him.
I just, I just loved that.

1123
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:55,280
I thought that was very cool.
And there's, I mean, I've

1124
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,520
experienced this again, the,
the, I've been thinking a lot

1125
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,920
about this film with my
experience with, with the book

1126
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,000
I'm writing.
And my father passed in

1127
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,440
November, and there are a lot of
family stories in the book.

1128
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:12,400
And I felt a lot more pressure
and conflict about writing a lot

1129
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,880
of those stories before he
passed.

1130
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,200
And it wasn't because I was
afraid of what he would think.

1131
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,920
It wasn't because I felt like I
was misrepresenting him or, you

1132
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,800
know, that I needed to avoid
some kind of controversy.

1133
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:30,360
It was more that the story isn't
over yet, You know, that his

1134
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,120
story wasn't over yet.
And so I was writing these

1135
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,640
reflections on him in childhood,
but what happens late in the

1136
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,560
story changes the way you tell
the early parts of the story.

1137
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:46,640
Yeah.
So he passed in November as I

1138
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:50,240
was writing the last chapters.
And that really did influence my

1139
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,600
final revisions of things
because, you know, once the

1140
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,920
story is told, you can step back
from the whole thing and

1141
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:58,760
reflect.
And it hasn't been very long.

1142
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,360
I'm sure I will be reflecting
for many years to come and

1143
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:05,280
making new and new discoveries.
But seems like the timing was a

1144
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:10,520
little bit similar here.
And I wonder if that closure

1145
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:16,280
gave him a sense of permission
to say, now, now the story is

1146
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,880
told and there's not going to be
any surprise twists at this

1147
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,960
point.
And I can step back and, and as

1148
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,720
a storyteller, give it the shape
that I see in it at this point.

1149
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,440
Yeah.
You know, that's, I love that.

1150
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,480
That's a great perspective and
makes a lot of sense to me.

1151
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:38,320
And it makes me think too, you
know, how he actually had more

1152
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:42,520
time to process his mom and you
know how he portrays her.

1153
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,640
And I think the I think the
incredible thing about this

1154
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,480
movie and how he, he and Kushner
wrote it, I love that he got

1155
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,960
someone like Kushner to write it
with him.

1156
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,280
And he talked about he Kushner
is the only one he could have

1157
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,280
because he just the way he and
Kushner Kushner communicate, he

1158
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,640
feels like he can, you know,
pour his heart out.

1159
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,160
He he doesn't have to hold
anything back with Kushner,

1160
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,800
which is which makes for great
writing, you know, But I love

1161
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:12,200
that he doesn't like sugarcoat
his parents, really.

1162
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,840
He shows kind of like the good
and bad of both of them.

1163
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,080
And, you know, he shows all the
great parts of his mom and how,

1164
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:25,280
how full of life she was and,
you know, how inspirational she

1165
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,160
was and how loving she was and
supportive.

1166
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:33,640
But he also shows that she could
make some, you know, really bad

1167
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:38,120
choices that came out of that
personality as a parent.

1168
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:45,600
And and the, you know, the this
the selfishness that she had

1169
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,120
with her choice that, you know,
it was something that he

1170
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:53,240
understood and probably has come
to understand better now than he

1171
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,760
did when he was 16 of why she
made that decision.

1172
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,320
And I think that conversation in
the kitchen is a lot of him kind

1173
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,280
of processing how much he
understands her now that that

1174
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,320
tension of like what she needed
and what her family needed.

1175
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,920
Yeah.
So I just love that he didn't he

1176
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,320
didn't try to.
You could very much end up with

1177
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:20,200
this kind of like Angelica
mother figure right in a

1178
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:23,120
autobiographical movie.
But he doesn't do that.

1179
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,920
And I I respect.
That take take for example, the

1180
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,800
scene where he comes, he hears
screams coming from the house

1181
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,640
and he he goes in and his mother
has has a has brought home a

1182
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:33,240
monkey.
Yeah.

1183
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,080
In the context of the story,
that's a it's a big jump.

1184
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:41,359
But we've seen how impulsive she
is by that point, right?

1185
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:44,560
We also know how frustrated she
is and how badly she needs to

1186
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:48,800
laugh.
She is missing the troublemaker

1187
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,560
in her life at that point, but
being separated from from

1188
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,960
Bernie.
And of course, Spielberg fans

1189
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,479
are looking at that scene going
Marion has a monkey and Raiders

1190
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,680
of the Lost Ark, and that monkey
is a troublemaker.

1191
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:07,240
And that monkey, in a story that
Spielberg told several decades

1192
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:11,439
earlier, is the enemy.
That monkey works for the Nazis.

1193
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:16,319
That monkey is a spy and a
traitor trying to break up

1194
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:18,920
something.
And in Raiders of the Lost Ark,

1195
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,520
Spielberg the storyteller,
Spielberg the judge, mental God

1196
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,319
gets to gets to judge the
monkey.

1197
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,720
Yeah, in this film, he's much
more, you know, he's he's older,

1198
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,600
much more mature, much more
understanding.

1199
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:35,080
But we get a very empathetic
picture of why the mother brings

1200
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,160
the monkey home.
And but I had to laugh at that

1201
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,840
because of how how much it
revealed who he was then and who

1202
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,319
he is now.
But also there, there are winks

1203
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:47,279
like that.
I don't know if they're all

1204
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,359
deliberate, but it feels like
there are so many deliberate

1205
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:52,160
winks all the way through the
film.

1206
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,760
They're sort of like, do you see
how that?

1207
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:56,480
Do you see where that came from
now?

1208
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,440
Yeah, you you think about like,
you know, riding the bikes down

1209
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:02,200
the road with his scout friends
and you think about ET.

1210
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,440
Yep, or the the grocery carts
running across the street in

1211
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:08,800
front of the car during the
tornado and you think of close

1212
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:10,000
Encounters.
Right.

1213
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,040
Him sitting in front of a
flickering screen with tears in

1214
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,640
his eyes and you think of Tom
Cruise and Minority Report.

1215
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,200
I even was thinking about, you
know, Spielberg does not have

1216
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,880
blue eyes, but the the kid he
cast to play the young Kim has

1217
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:29,000
these bright blue eyes and
there's that image of those.

1218
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,680
The close up of those eyes made
me think of AI.

1219
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:35,920
Yeah, AI and Elliot and ETI.
Don't remember if Elliot has

1220
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,160
blue eyes, but yeah, yeah,
definitely.

1221
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,840
There's a lot of AI in here
which reminds me now that it

1222
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,480
comes up, I think he has a Co
writing credit on that.

1223
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,200
The.
Original screenplay was was

1224
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,200
heavily Kubrick.
Right, but he does have.

1225
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:52,840
The right thing, he messed with
it a little bit.

1226
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:53,920
I'll have to go back and check
that.

1227
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,800
I think he has the sole writing
credit on that now that you say

1228
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:58,200
that.
OK.

1229
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:02,480
Because he, he didn't really
want, because it was Kubrick's,

1230
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,640
he didn't want anyone else to,
to mess with it.

1231
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:09,840
He wanted to risk, you know, do
the best job he could to make it

1232
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,880
how he thinks to honor Kubrick.
So yeah, he I think he does have

1233
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:17,720
the sole credit on that one.
So that is probably the last one

1234
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,480
since close Encounters than
that.

1235
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:24,520
And but even that was like,
yeah, he has the sole credit,

1236
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,840
but a lot of it was already from
Kubrick, so.

1237
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:36,840
The the the aggressive
girlfriend in the aggressive

1238
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:38,560
Christian girlfriend in the
families.

1239
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,360
I can't help but wonder if we
aren't supposed to think of Amy

1240
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:45,280
Adams character in Catch Me If
You Can as the rather

1241
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,000
aggressive, rather horny young
woman.

1242
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,520
Yeah, throwing herself at
Leonardo DiCaprio.

1243
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,880
Yeah, there's a lot of talking
about website and how the planes

1244
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:59,120
in Empire of the Sun sort of
play the role of movies here

1245
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,240
representing the dreams and
hopes of this young man in the

1246
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:09,400
concentration camp.
I don't know very many people

1247
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:11,920
who would put Empire of the Sun
in their in their Spielberg top

1248
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,600
five, but but I I would it, it
stays with me as one of the most

1249
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:19,040
personal, it feels to me like
one of the most personal films

1250
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,360
for him.
And again about separation from

1251
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:25,400
your mother and father, and what
it feels like to have your world

1252
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:29,200
falling apart as a kid.
And to to have to grow up before

1253
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:30,960
you're supposed to have to grow
up.

1254
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:33,720
Yeah.
You know, there's a lot of that

1255
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:38,000
in the Empire of the Sun and and
Spielberg's life personally.

1256
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:40,720
Yeah.
And you took a lot of liberties

1257
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,600
with the source material in that
one.

1258
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,840
It's if you go and read.
I did read it.

1259
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,680
It's a very different, that's a
very different writer.

1260
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,000
I'm not surprised he hasn't gone
back and done any more of

1261
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:52,880
Ballard's works.
But.

1262
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:01,760
It's it, it's definitely all
over it and really like the, you

1263
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,720
know, it makes me think about
just the way he shoots movies.

1264
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:10,840
He really kind of pulls out all
of this, all the stops in this

1265
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:13,880
one, all the shots that he's
done over the years, you know,

1266
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,760
all the different sorts of
close-ups that he's, he's kind

1267
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,440
of perfected the, the low, those
low angle close-ups, the, the

1268
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:27,120
push insurance and the, you
know, he, he's, he does this

1269
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:31,400
thing in this movie that I
haven't seen in a while that I

1270
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,800
used to.
I feel like in like the his he's

1271
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,560
90s run, he was doing this a lot
where he'll have a character

1272
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:44,400
kind of walk up into their close
up on on on screen and he does

1273
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:47,320
that with the one of the bully
kids does it while they're

1274
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,520
playing volleyball.
And this one, and I was like,

1275
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,360
there's that there's that shot
that I haven't seen him forever.

1276
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,080
You know, part of that is just
I've been watching Spielberg

1277
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,320
movies for two years straight
and analyzing them so hot.

1278
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:01,360
You know, that's not necessarily
something most people would

1279
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,320
probably recognize as like, oh,
he's, he's doing shots that he

1280
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:09,640
hasn't done in forever, really.
But there's that meta element of

1281
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:15,360
the whole thing too, where as
he, as we watch Sammy practicing

1282
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,720
editing, the scene itself is
edited brilliantly.

1283
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,040
So you're, you're constantly
thinking about we are seeing the

1284
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:27,800
result that we are seeing what
he can do now as we watch him

1285
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,440
edit a scene about him learning
to edit.

1286
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:34,600
And so I can't help but wonder
if we aren't getting a little

1287
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:39,600
bit of a comment on what sort of
the, the cliche that he is best

1288
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:43,600
known for, which is that, that
that emotional zoom, right?

1289
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,040
I don't know if you remember the
Joe Dante film, the burbs on

1290
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:52,840
early Tom Hanks comedy, but that
film in the mid 80s was already

1291
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,440
spoofing the Spielberg zoom.
So that if something dramatic

1292
01:14:56,440 --> 01:14:59,960
happened in the cul-de-sac that
is the location for that film,

1293
01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:04,480
if anything dramatic happened
there, there would be like 12

1294
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,800
zooms on the different neighbors
faces, all of them reacting to

1295
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,000
the thing to the point that it
just became absurd.

1296
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:13,760
And then at one point I remember
there was even a slow zoom on a

1297
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,000
dog who just is not paying any
attention at all.

1298
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,200
And we were all just laughing
because we knew what that was at

1299
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,680
that point.
But then you watch this and you

1300
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,880
see, first of all, I think it's
a it's a budget thing, right?

1301
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:30,920
He at, at in those early films,
he can't create these massive

1302
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,480
panoramic dramas.
So he's got to convince you of

1303
01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:38,960
the drama by the expressions of
the people watching and those

1304
01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:43,160
scenes where we see him paying
such close attention to his

1305
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,920
mother's face as he's starting
to realize there's something

1306
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:50,400
going on here that I am only now
discovering.

1307
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:53,760
And he keeps going back over and
over and over, frame by frame,

1308
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,640
to look at her eyes, to look at
her face and try to read those

1309
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:02,440
expressions when she's falling
into, you know, Bernie's arms or

1310
01:16:02,440 --> 01:16:05,920
she's falling or she's on the
tree and she's laughing and

1311
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:09,360
feeling carefree.
Yeah, there are so many moments

1312
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,760
where he's zooming in because
he's trying to understand

1313
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:16,240
something, and I almost wonder
if that isn't kind of a yeah,

1314
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,160
well, here's where that came
from, too.

1315
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,360
Right.
Yeah.

1316
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:24,360
And even like, I think because
of that later in the film when

1317
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,520
you get you get him filming the
new house they have in

1318
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:32,480
California, you know, with Burt
the dad running around and

1319
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:35,800
showing him everything, which
Spielberg, by the way, I think

1320
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:42,960
all or most of those kind of
eight, 8mm and 16mm a shot.

1321
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:48,240
Spielberg shot most of those
himself, which is which is cool.

1322
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:52,240
But even in that, as you're
saying that it made me think he

1323
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:56,760
is making sure to film his mom
and those because the dad's

1324
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,120
like, wait, why'd you go away?
And he's gone over to his mom

1325
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:04,200
outside the the window.
And it makes me wonder like, is

1326
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:08,480
he, you know, is he going and
trying to capture what his mom

1327
01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:11,160
is thinking so that he can go
back and look later and try to

1328
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,080
understand his mom better?
And, you know, there's that that

1329
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,680
moment where his dad carries her
through and she's laughing, but

1330
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:21,600
then her eye, she makes eye
contact with the camera and that

1331
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,480
just distant depressed look in
her eye.

1332
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:29,400
Really like that look made me
emotional and tear up even more

1333
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:32,160
than the the announcement scene
that follows.

1334
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,040
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's

1335
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:37,040
incredible.
It's.

1336
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,960
Well, and that makes sense too.
I mean, most directors would

1337
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:44,280
make that scene, the scene of
the the announcement, be the

1338
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,320
emotional peak of the movie.
But for him, it's not

1339
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,240
uncharacteristically.
It's not about making us

1340
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:55,680
emotional at that point.
It's about how the only way he

1341
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,920
could process it was to detach.
And so you see that sort of

1342
01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:03,760
fantasy image of him filming the
announcement when he's really

1343
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:07,440
just sitting on the stairs and
he you realize that some of what

1344
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:11,840
he does so well, some of his
strength comes from PTSD, comes

1345
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,680
from trauma, unable to cope with
what's in front of him.

1346
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:18,800
Just like the little boy
watching the train crash at the

1347
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,040
beginning of the film, he
detaches and thinks about how he

1348
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:27,320
can gain control over the
situation by filming it, to use

1349
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,120
his mother's words from earlier
in the film.

1350
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:34,880
And I I think that's a much more
interesting storytelling choice.

1351
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,640
It's a much more personal and
revealing thing.

1352
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,320
Rather than just to go for the
audience's emotion, give the

1353
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,680
audience a chance to learn
something by observation

1354
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:48,440
themselves, and that way the
emotions the audience feels are

1355
01:18:48,440 --> 01:18:50,560
very much their own.
We are.

1356
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,720
Being told what to feel.
And I think too, there's a lot

1357
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:59,640
in this movie of showing that
like the his films, once he's

1358
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,760
made them, they're not really
for him anymore.

1359
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,080
It seems like every time he's
showing a film before an

1360
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:09,480
audience, he's disengaged.
He's thinking about something

1361
01:19:09,480 --> 01:19:12,560
else.
He's you know, and the the war

1362
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,600
film, he's watching his mom and
Benny, because he's made that

1363
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:19,800
discovery at that point at the
ditch day film, he's like, you

1364
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,320
know, he's just down.
He's he's been dumped.

1365
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:26,840
He's not thinking about what he
filmed anymore, but when you the

1366
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:32,520
way Spielberg films it, he makes
sure to hone in on the audience,

1367
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,880
not so much on the screen
showing the movie, but the

1368
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:39,520
audience faces as they watch it.
I think about the war film, it,

1369
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:43,560
it kind of slowly pushes in
closer and closer to his mom's

1370
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,600
face and, and what the move,
what the movie is doing for her

1371
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:52,880
in that moment is just as moving
for you as an audience member as

1372
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:56,640
the film itself.
Or, you know, the excitement of

1373
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:01,440
the students watching the ditch
day film, seeing their reaction

1374
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:06,200
is, is just as important as, you
know, whatever, however good the

1375
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,800
film looks, you know, on the
screen.

1376
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:12,480
It's and that's something that
Spielberg has always been, he's

1377
01:20:12,480 --> 01:20:16,640
always had audience on his mind.
So I thought that was another

1378
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:19,480
kind of like self, self
referential thing with the way

1379
01:20:19,480 --> 01:20:24,480
he shot those scenes.
Was just that idea that he he's

1380
01:20:24,480 --> 01:20:27,560
always cared what the audience
thoughts, not in the not in the

1381
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:31,920
way that like it fundamentally
changes his films, but in the

1382
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,960
fact that he does want the
audience to be entertained to to

1383
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:44,120
think, wow, that's a cool shot
to to be moved or you know, you

1384
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:48,520
know, he has this run of very
political movies in the 2000s

1385
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:53,800
and and twenty 10s that he does
want to portray important things

1386
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,120
through his movies.
He he always has the his

1387
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:01,000
audience and mind in in a good
way, in the best way possible

1388
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,480
for an artist like Spielberg.
So that was something that stood

1389
01:21:04,480 --> 01:21:08,200
out to me.
And the beach scene in

1390
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,120
particular, and the movie he
makes there and then shows is

1391
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:16,680
also, He's also hoping that the
audience is going to notice how

1392
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:22,840
he's sort of playfully engaging
the the legacy of Leni

1393
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:28,320
Riefenstahl and the Nazi
propaganda movies that she made,

1394
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,560
sort of celebrating the Aryan
ideal.

1395
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:37,920
Here he's being abused and and
persecuted by racists by

1396
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:43,640
anti-Semitism in the school.
And what does he do when he is

1397
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:49,280
asked to film an event that is
going to let the bullies shine?

1398
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:54,440
He gives them such reverent
attention that it's funny when

1399
01:21:54,440 --> 01:21:57,160
you watch it and it makes them
uncomfortable.

1400
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:04,880
It makes makes the bully
uncomfortable, but it does sort

1401
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:11,160
of make us think about those the
the power of film to do harm by

1402
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,880
glorifying a certain kind of
person at the expense of others.

1403
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,960
Right.
I think, I'm not sure I think

1404
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:22,880
that that branch of or that that
that thread of the movie's

1405
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:25,840
tapestry might not be its
strongest thread.

1406
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,560
It sort of raises sort of teases
us with questions and issues

1407
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:32,640
that it then doesn't really have
the time at that point to dig

1408
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,240
very deeply into.
But it's an acknowledgement that

1409
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,000
that's been an important part of
his experience as well in

1410
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:41,880
Hollywood.
And so much, I mean, not as much

1411
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,440
as the Coen brothers, I would
say, but there, there has been a

1412
01:22:44,440 --> 01:22:49,680
thread throughout his filmmaking
about Jews in America and about

1413
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:52,720
racism, about about hatred,
about prejudice.

1414
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,120
So there, yeah, he probably
couldn't make many deliberate

1415
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,640
connections to Schindler's List
in this film, but that's.

1416
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:05,560
Yeah.
That's a nod in that direction

1417
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,360
and by that point we are
thinking about how everything

1418
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,680
he's done has been a way of
facing fears.

1419
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:15,880
Yeah, yeah.
The the the way a tank comes

1420
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:23,320
over a hill in Saving Private
Ryan has such aesthetic

1421
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:27,520
parallels to the T Rex breaking
out of its boundaries in

1422
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,680
Jurassic Park and attacking.
It's like all these are all

1423
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:32,800
doing the same thing.
In a way, they are all

1424
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,320
addressing these these things
that are too big for him to

1425
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:39,840
process, too scary for him to
understand, and so he has to try

1426
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,560
to make sense of them in film.
It's interesting that those

1427
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:44,360
those films came out at the same
time.

1428
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,440
Yeah.
He was, I think we see a lot of

1429
01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:51,160
the emotional evidence of what
he was going through making

1430
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,600
Schindler's List showing up in
Jurassic Park.

1431
01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:57,520
Yeah, yeah.
And I think, I think another

1432
01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:01,520
thing jumping off of that is,
you know, at this point in his

1433
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,640
career, it's it's one of those
things where, you know, I always

1434
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:08,320
wonder what people like
Spielberg, how they kind of

1435
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:11,680
process their celebrity.
I guess, you know, you're,

1436
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:14,880
you're constantly hearing people
call you a master and a genius.

1437
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,560
And, you know, how do you deal
with that?

1438
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,680
But there there has to be a
point where someone like

1439
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:25,640
Spielberg realizes that he is
going, whether he wants to be

1440
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,800
modest about her or not, he is
going to be considered one of

1441
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:32,760
the greatest of all time.
You know, there's no denying

1442
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:35,600
that for him.
And so I think part of what he's

1443
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:40,280
doing in this movie is kind of
trying to wrestle with with I

1444
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,520
have this gift.
I don't always know how to wield

1445
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,960
it in the right way.
And it has this power over

1446
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:48,800
people.
You know, you think about when

1447
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:53,600
he shows the the footage, the
that he cut out of the camping

1448
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:58,040
trip to his mother and you know,
you have the camera just sits on

1449
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:01,760
her face and slowly pushes in
and you if you watch her

1450
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:05,560
expressions, you can see that
he's showing her something.

1451
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:09,440
Maybe she didn't even fully
understand about herself.

1452
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:12,920
And that's a that's a very
powerful thing to be able to

1453
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,760
show something to someone that
they didn't even realize fully

1454
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,440
about themselves.
And it's it's the same thing

1455
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:22,640
with the bully.
He'd his mom is mature, so she

1456
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:25,200
can she she understands and can
express it.

1457
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:29,640
The bully doesn't even know what
he's upset about, but it's but

1458
01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:31,800
it's wielded this power over
him.

1459
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:35,000
And so he, I think he is in a
way wrestling with that.

1460
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:36,920
What?
What is it?

1461
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,160
Acknowledging.
Acknowledging that there have

1462
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:42,720
been times when he has used it,
maybe almost vengefully.

1463
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:45,240
Yeah, yeah.
That would probably take you

1464
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:50,000
back to the early Indiana Jones
movies and the Controvert.

1465
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:53,000
They've never been big, raging
controversies, but there have

1466
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:55,640
been debates about cultural
stereotypes.

1467
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:01,600
And just how is it healthy to
make a movie where you just line

1468
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,240
up a whole bunch of Nazis and
have somebody shoot a bullet

1469
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:07,280
through 12 of them at a time?
You know, that's that That's

1470
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:08,600
cathartic.
But is it?

1471
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:12,600
Is it helpful?
And the much older Spielberg now

1472
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,000
seems to be acknowledging that
the bullies are humans, too.

1473
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,440
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.

1474
01:26:18,440 --> 01:26:21,640
And I and I think he's, he does
in this movie, really.

1475
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:25,160
And he, I think he says it in
the special features.

1476
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:29,480
Nobody in this movie is a
villain, you know, and, and that

1477
01:26:29,480 --> 01:26:32,640
that comes through to me, even
the boys, which are the closest

1478
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,120
thing to that in the end, you
know, he shows their humanity

1479
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:40,080
with the one crying and the
other, you know, running away

1480
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:43,280
scared, you know, from the from
the low.

1481
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:46,520
I think Logan is the big guy.
And so, yeah.

1482
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:52,000
And I think it's just part of
he's softened up a whole lot

1483
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:56,280
over the years as as you kind of
do, as you grow older and, you

1484
01:26:56,280 --> 01:27:00,320
know, have families and, you
know, you really do soften up.

1485
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:04,240
You know, I'm, I'm way softer
now in my 30s than I was, you

1486
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:07,640
know, a decade ago in my 20s and
able to process things

1487
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:10,720
emotionally and see people with
a lot more compassion than I

1488
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:13,320
was, you know, back then.
And.

1489
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:15,720
I hope you know that's not
normal.

1490
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:19,800
There are too many men in this
world, and especially in this

1491
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,120
country, who are not growing up
like that, who are not.

1492
01:27:23,480 --> 01:27:25,880
That's a good.
Cultivating empathy, not not

1493
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:30,520
cultivating compassion and just
getting more and more hardened

1494
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:37,000
and vengeful and and bitter as
they realize this ideal of

1495
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:42,640
masculinity they've been sold is
is or even admired.

1496
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,640
Yeah, and I think Spielberg's
done a lot in the past like

1497
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:51,080
decade to really try to push
against that that sort of thing.

1498
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:55,400
You know, you think really like
when you think about the tree of

1499
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:59,440
Bridge of Spies, Lincoln and the
Post, you know, those are I

1500
01:27:59,440 --> 01:28:02,360
think I think I've talked with
Elijah Davidson on Bridge of

1501
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:05,840
Spies episode about how, you
know, those are really films

1502
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:09,440
where he's holding up these
ideals of people and saying

1503
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:13,600
these are the sorts of values we
should be holding as people.

1504
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,280
These are the sorts of values
that we should be standing up

1505
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:18,520
for.
Not all this other, you know, oh

1506
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:22,200
crap that people stand up for
and, and, you know, push.

1507
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:28,120
But these ideals of freedom and
of compassion for others and of,

1508
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:31,600
you know, doing the right thing
because it's the right thing,

1509
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:34,320
not because it's going to get
you somewhere in life, you know?

1510
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:38,560
Yeah, and making, making the
focus of the films.

1511
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:43,760
Not always a white male hero
saving the day, or even

1512
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:47,320
necessarily a white male hero
learning to empathize.

1513
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,840
I mean when he made Oh Wow the
name of it just sailed out of my

1514
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:53,680
head.
The historical film about

1515
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:55,640
slavery.
Amistad.

1516
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,080
Amistad, thank you.
That's the one I don't have here

1517
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:01,840
in my home video collection
because I've never really liked

1518
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,880
that movie very much.
But part of the part of the

1519
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,560
problem with it for me was that
here was this movie about racism

1520
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:12,080
in American history and it
mostly it gave the big glorious

1521
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,080
moments to a white male
characters.

1522
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:20,200
But that you can see the change
even by Lincoln.

1523
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:24,640
I remember so many, so many not
particularly thoughtful critics

1524
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:27,200
reacting to that film being
like, why did they give Lincoln

1525
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:31,200
to such a such a weak voice?
You know, Lincoln was a strong

1526
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:32,800
hero.
You know, he was our iconic

1527
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:34,240
leader.
I'm like, yeah.

1528
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:37,480
And historically, Daniel Day, I
mean, Daniel Day Lewis does his

1529
01:29:37,480 --> 01:29:41,360
homework, Spielberg does his
homework that is based on the

1530
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:45,240
few recordings we have and
testimonies we have about

1531
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,640
Lincoln's voice.
You can see there that he's he's

1532
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:49,600
making choices to tell the tell
the truth.

1533
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:55,280
And and even in that challenge,
all right, our unhealthy ideals.

1534
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:59,600
But there's a line, There's a
key line in this movie where

1535
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:03,400
where somebody, I think it's one
of his high school classmates,

1536
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:05,000
says, well, maybe it's one of
his sisters.

1537
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:06,760
When are you going to make a
movie about the girls?

1538
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:11,440
Yeah, it's after his war film.
Showing his.

1539
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:16,000
Sisters ask that.
And asks that in the movie that

1540
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:20,520
is in a way doing that by making
his mother really the heart of

1541
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:22,480
the film.
He's doing that more than he

1542
01:30:22,480 --> 01:30:24,360
ever has before.
Because you could argue that the

1543
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:26,720
BFG shifts in that direction as
well.

1544
01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:29,720
The post to in a lot of ways.
I'm sorry.

1545
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:31,720
The post as well in a lot of the
post.

1546
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:35,320
Yes, yes, of course.
So you can see him, him, you

1547
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:39,120
know, responding to those
critiques over the years.

1548
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:41,680
Yeah.
Hello again.

1549
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:46,320
Do you know how you can really
support the show for free in

1550
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:51,160
just a few minutes or less?
That's right, just leave a

1551
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:55,680
rating and review on Spotify and
Apple or wherever you listen

1552
01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:57,840
that might allow for ratings and
reviews.

1553
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:01,400
These really help the visibility
of the podcast.

1554
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:06,040
In fact, just hit that pause
button right now and drop the

1555
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:10,680
review right now and then you
can get back to the show.

1556
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:16,200
I'd greatly appreciate it.
OK, I trust that you when left

1557
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:18,920
that rating and review.
Now back to the show.

1558
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:25,240
There are there any other like
standout images that you think

1559
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:26,640
of that we haven't talked about
yet?

1560
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:29,000
From the Fablemans.
Yeah.

1561
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,160
Excuse me?
I mean, it's easy to get

1562
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:34,760
preoccupied with the images that
remind you of other images.

1563
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:37,520
Sure.
From a hit from his body of

1564
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:38,840
work.
But I want to, I kind of want to

1565
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:45,520
move on from that because it's
not all that there are the the

1566
01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:48,280
scene where he is, that we
referenced earlier where he is,

1567
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:52,240
he is discovering the the
affair.

1568
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:56,600
The way the camera moves around
him as he's editing it, excuse

1569
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:01,560
me, it moves not just around
him, but in a spiral in a way

1570
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:05,080
that sort of mimics the reels
and the way he the way he's

1571
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:07,480
working with the film.
I think that's really powerful.

1572
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:17,560
Excuse me, how?
We're talking about editing, but

1573
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:19,400
also the scene where she's
dancing.

1574
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:24,000
Yeah.
And they turn on the car

1575
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:26,400
headlights.
But then we're seeing the movie

1576
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:29,560
itself that he made.
And that's when we discover that

1577
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:34,280
he's cropped it so that you see
the flames of the campfire in

1578
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:37,440
front of her.
And that is an incredible image.

1579
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:39,320
Yeah.
I'm sorry.

1580
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:44,120
Oh, it's fine.
I'd like to pretend that I'm

1581
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:47,080
just being moved by the by the
memory, but I'm not.

1582
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:51,840
My voice is starting to go.
I'll say that again.

1583
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:55,400
The the image of his mother
dancing.

1584
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:00,880
We see the lights of the of the
car gleaming through her dress.

1585
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,200
We get the daughter panicking
about that.

1586
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,440
I think that's wonderful.
But then what?

1587
01:33:07,440 --> 01:33:12,840
Later, when we see what he was
shooting and you realize that

1588
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:16,320
the the flame of the campfire is
in the at the bottom of the

1589
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:18,240
frame.
So you've got the fire in the

1590
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:21,880
foreground and you've got her in
the center, and then you've got

1591
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:26,200
the lights of the car behind her
and the flame becomes almost

1592
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:30,600
symbolic.
There are so many points in this

1593
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:32,360
movie.
When I think of Malik's The Tree

1594
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:36,800
of Life, I talk about that more
than any other Malik film.

1595
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:40,840
It's not my favorite Malik film,
but it is the most ambitious

1596
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:45,440
visually and innovative
visually, and I can see the

1597
01:33:45,440 --> 01:33:48,320
influence of that all over this
film, especially in the

1598
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:50,760
treatment of the mother.
I kept thinking of the moment in

1599
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:53,600
the Tree of Life when you see
Jessica Chastain's character

1600
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:59,680
playing basically Malik's mother
dancing under the tree in their

1601
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,840
front yard and levitating.
Yeah.

1602
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:07,640
And I mean that that must be one
of the inspirations for this,

1603
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:10,920
how he shoots this scene.
But then you've got that flame

1604
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,240
in the foreground.
And it reminds me of the flame

1605
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,480
that is the first thing we see
in the Tree of Life.

1606
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:20,560
This, this sort of mysterious
supernatural flame that may be

1607
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:27,440
representing the Holy Spirit or
the spark of creation or the

1608
01:34:27,440 --> 01:34:29,400
soul of his mother.
I don't know.

1609
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:35,760
But that, that's a really
powerful image, I think.

1610
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,960
And it's such an iconic image,
such a such a familiar image to

1611
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:45,120
have to see the beacon.
Oh boy, here we go with another

1612
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:54,320
siren to see the beacon of a
film projector gleaming out over

1613
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:56,480
an audience.
And we are looking at the

1614
01:34:56,480 --> 01:34:59,640
audience's faces.
I've seen that in so many

1615
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:04,920
movies, from Amelie to the long
The Long Day Closes to even the

1616
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:09,040
Muppet Movie.
But in this one, he does a

1617
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:12,280
little bit of showing off.
He takes even that very familiar

1618
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:14,920
thing and does it in a way we've
never seen before.

1619
01:35:15,160 --> 01:35:18,440
The way that the camera was just
sweeping over this vast

1620
01:35:18,440 --> 01:35:21,680
audience.
And we're we're seeing just how

1621
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:25,680
much power the images on the
screen that we cannot see have

1622
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:27,960
over them.
That one sticks with me from

1623
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,960
this film, even though it's a
even though it's a kind of shot

1624
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:33,080
that has become rather cliche
for me.

1625
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:34,200
Yeah.
Yeah.

1626
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:37,960
What about you?
Yeah, I, you know, as you were

1627
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:42,800
saying that, I, I do think
there's a bit of like there are

1628
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:47,560
several moments where, you know,
I go back to his mom in the

1629
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:51,680
closet watching that where he's
kind of shooting at this angle

1630
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:56,960
where the, you know, the
projector is kind of gleaming

1631
01:35:56,960 --> 01:35:59,800
past his mom, you know, in the
frame.

1632
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:02,360
And you get those kind of those
light flares, you know, in the

1633
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,320
camera.
There's more to that than just

1634
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:08,560
it looks cool, which most of the
time when you see that in a

1635
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:11,240
movie, it's like, oh, this is
just a cool shot.

1636
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:15,360
But in that one, you know, the
the projection of the camera,

1637
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:19,880
you know, of the of that film
that that, that he's projecting

1638
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:24,080
and showing his mom is invading
the frame there with his mom.

1639
01:36:24,440 --> 01:36:30,320
In a way, that's what it's doing
in her that you see on her face.

1640
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:31,640
Yeah.
Yeah.

1641
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:33,240
And I think that's very
powerful.

1642
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:36,840
And probably with someone like
Spielberg, probably pretty

1643
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:40,400
purposeful in a lot of ways.
And yeah.

1644
01:36:41,440 --> 01:36:46,120
The specificity of a lot of the
family interactions reminds me

1645
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,520
of something in Spielberg, and I
would say to some extent even in

1646
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:51,720
Malik's films that I really
missed.

1647
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:57,280
That is very much a 70s thing.
And it is that chaos of a family

1648
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:02,960
situation is the paying
attention to every little detail

1649
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:08,440
so that it seems as rough and
complicated and prone to

1650
01:37:08,440 --> 01:37:11,280
accidents as possible.
When I think about the family

1651
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:13,600
interactions and close
Encounters of the Third Kind,

1652
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:18,320
it's just bedlam in that house.
It's someone who has lived that

1653
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:22,760
kind of family situation.
And as he's gotten older, his

1654
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:26,760
movies, as much as I love them,
have become more and more movies

1655
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:29,320
made by somebody who has watched
a lot of movies.

1656
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:32,880
And so this is what a family
looks like in a movie.

1657
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:36,520
Why I think of War of the Worlds
and how little that movie

1658
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,040
affected me because the movie
was the movie's character for

1659
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,600
the family at the heart of the
film was such a movie family.

1660
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,800
I didn't believe in them at all.
I'm not moved by that final

1661
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:49,640
image of the reunion between
father and son at all, because I

1662
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:52,840
don't believe that's a father
and a son in this film.

1663
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:57,000
Something as simple as taking
the tablecloths at the dinner

1664
01:37:57,000 --> 01:38:02,000
table and these disposable
tablecloths and folding them

1665
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:07,240
over the plates and the plastic
utensils and bundling it all up

1666
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:10,880
and taking it to the trash.
That grumpy grandma makes.

1667
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:14,840
Me believe, yeah, that that
suspends my disbelief because

1668
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:17,560
it's got to be it's got to be
from experience.

1669
01:38:19,440 --> 01:38:21,760
But sometimes it's even
something simpler than that.

1670
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:26,320
And I think maybe the the
allusion to one of his previous

1671
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:31,160
films that hit me hardest.
Watching it again today was the

1672
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:35,680
scene of the grandmother dying
in the in the hospital and how

1673
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:39,720
the film how the how the the
differences in personalities

1674
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,320
come through there.
You've got the dad looking at

1675
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:44,480
the machine, looking at the
heart monitor.

1676
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:49,840
You've got the mom lying on top
of her mother and feeling and

1677
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:52,960
emoting and speaking and
listening.

1678
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:58,760
And you've got Sammy on the
side, and he is looking at the

1679
01:38:58,760 --> 01:39:03,080
pulse in his grandmother's neck.
And as the camera zoomed in on

1680
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:09,080
that, my mind went to the
tremor, the impact tremor of the

1681
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:11,200
T Rex in Jurassic Park.
Yeah.

1682
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,000
This is how you know death is
coming.

1683
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:16,720
Look at that ripple on the
water.

1684
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:20,000
Look at that.
Look at that twitch in the neck.

1685
01:39:20,240 --> 01:39:24,280
And who, who is the person who
knows first when grandmother has

1686
01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:30,360
passed, Right?
It's an amazing way.

1687
01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:32,680
It's an amazing example of
showing and not telling.

1688
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:36,280
It's not the dialogue that lets
us know what's going on there.

1689
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:40,320
It's it's, it's what.
It's what he chooses to give his

1690
01:39:41,440 --> 01:39:42,920
his camera to.
Yeah.

1691
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:47,840
And it's, it's a, it's him like
kind of giving us this like

1692
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:53,520
these moments of how he sees the
world, you know, and because he

1693
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:58,280
is such an intuitive director,
you know, his, he's, he's talked

1694
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:01,600
about over and over again.
He's in most of his element when

1695
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:08,000
he can show up on a set and just
feel, feel the space and fill

1696
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:11,280
his actors within the space.
And that's how he gets always

1697
01:40:11,280 --> 01:40:15,320
gets his best to his best stuff.
And, you know, another moment

1698
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,800
like that is after he's been
punched in the nose by the

1699
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:22,080
bullies and he's, you know, the
dad comes home and mom's

1700
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:24,080
freaking out.
He's dad is freaking out a

1701
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:27,000
little bit.
And they're they're arguing with

1702
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:29,880
each other at that point in the
film.

1703
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:34,000
And there's this quick, subtle
moment where you see Sammy

1704
01:40:34,400 --> 01:40:38,320
seeing everything in the mirror.
He sees himself sitting there

1705
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,440
with his bloody nose, and he
sees his parents kind of over

1706
01:40:41,440 --> 01:40:44,520
him arguing.
And you can tell in that moment,

1707
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:48,920
Sammy is almost processing, oh,
this would look good in a film

1708
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:51,600
one day, you know?
And that's how he sees the

1709
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:53,320
world.
And, you know, we get that

1710
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:55,960
impressionistic image of him in
the mirror when they're

1711
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:58,080
announcing the divorce that
we've talked about.

1712
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:02,240
They're all these moments that
are kind of like giving us eyes

1713
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:06,120
how Steven Spielberg processes
and sees the world.

1714
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:07,920
And I think that's really cool
too.

1715
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:10,560
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I've, I've felt

1716
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:14,240
some of that in trying to,
trying to capture in writing

1717
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:16,400
some of the events of my own
childhood recently.

1718
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:19,880
There is a fundamental
loneliness at the at the heart

1719
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:23,640
of that that says if your brain
is working that way, part of

1720
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:26,440
what you want is for other
people to be there with you in

1721
01:41:26,440 --> 01:41:28,360
that moment.
Even if you have to wait 20

1722
01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:31,720
years for it to happen.
You are looking for a way to

1723
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:34,480
express this is what I am
feeling.

1724
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:38,280
This is what I am going through.
So how can I, even now, as it's

1725
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:43,440
happening, find a way to testify
truthfully in a way that people

1726
01:41:43,440 --> 01:41:45,320
will believe me?
Right.

1727
01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:49,600
That's why the moment I remember
most from Hook of all of the

1728
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:52,600
fantasy, of all the flying, of
all the Captain Hook stuff, what

1729
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:55,640
I remember first and foremost
whenever I think of that film is

1730
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:59,360
a moment when Robin Williams
turns in anger and lashes out at

1731
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:02,360
one of his children.
I think it's one of the scariest

1732
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:05,360
moments in all of Spielberg's
films because that is an

1733
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:09,240
emotional truth that he
somebody, I'm assuming his

1734
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:12,800
father at some point, lashed out
at him like that.

1735
01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:16,640
And it it feels like a punch in
the face when you see it in that

1736
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:20,760
film.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

1737
01:42:21,440 --> 01:42:23,920
Yeah.
And yeah.

1738
01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:26,800
Did you have any any final
thoughts as we kind of wrap up

1739
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:31,200
final takeaways on the film that
you wanted?

1740
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:34,440
To I mean, I think it's kind of
AI don't want, I shouldn't throw

1741
01:42:34,440 --> 01:42:38,000
the word miracle around, but I,
I think it's, it's, we are very,

1742
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:42,280
very blessed to use a word
that's also kind of overused,

1743
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:46,600
but blessed that we got this.
And it's, it's as good as it is

1744
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:50,840
because in some ways I don't
think he's as strong a filmmaker

1745
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:53,800
as he used to be.
He's grown and changed.

1746
01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:57,920
And I do think spending so much
time in filmmaking and watching

1747
01:42:57,920 --> 01:43:00,840
other films and living in
Hollywood and he can't help it.

1748
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:04,760
Privilege changes you.
I think it's harder for him to

1749
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:09,040
find those moments of emotional
authenticity than it used to be.

1750
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:14,440
I miss the Spielberg that had to
make a movie struggling with

1751
01:43:14,440 --> 01:43:17,280
limitations.
I think Raiders of the Lost Ark

1752
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:20,000
is one of the most incredible
things ever made.

1753
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:24,320
Because it makes me believe in
the most outrageous things.

1754
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:27,560
And one of the ways it does that
is it's abrasiveness.

1755
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:31,320
It's it's, it's roughness.
You can feel the dust and the

1756
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,520
dirt in that movie in a way that
you can't even just a few years

1757
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:37,800
later with Last Crusade.
Yeah, absolutely.

1758
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:41,160
The more powerful he became, the
more resources that became

1759
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:44,520
available to him, the harder I
think it is for him to make us

1760
01:43:44,520 --> 01:43:46,000
feel like our feet are on the
ground.

1761
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,840
He gets some of that back in
Jurassic Park in them in that T

1762
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,960
Rex sequence when we can really
feel the weight of the dinosaur

1763
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:57,120
in a way that we haven't in any
of the sequels since.

1764
01:43:57,120 --> 01:44:01,320
In my opinion, I still think
what he achieves in the balance

1765
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:04,680
of practical effects and
animation in Jurassic Park is

1766
01:44:04,680 --> 01:44:09,720
unmatched since then in digital
animation, Peter Jackson does

1767
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:12,840
does some pretty amazing things
and innovates in a ways in The

1768
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:15,880
Lord of the Rings, but that
scene always gets me in a way

1769
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:21,640
that no other CGI creature has.
Again though, he was pushing

1770
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:26,240
against limitations there to
find out what was possible, and

1771
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:28,960
I think the best work he does
going forward will be in those

1772
01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:31,760
moments when he finds ways to
push against something.

1773
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:35,360
Yeah.
So the Fablemans, it's it's

1774
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:39,520
weakest moments for me have to
do with a quality of imagery,

1775
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:42,400
whereas things just feel a
little too slick, sometimes a

1776
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:44,960
little too easy.
And it's best parts happen when

1777
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:49,080
he's really attending to the
performances and not bringing

1778
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:52,960
all of the tools to bear.
I, I look back at movies like

1779
01:44:52,960 --> 01:45:02,040
Minority Report and and wish
that it had that gritty quality.

1780
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:04,600
It's a sci-fi film.
It's a futuristic film.

1781
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:06,840
It's not going to feel gritty in
some ways.

1782
01:45:06,840 --> 01:45:09,520
It's going to feel streamlined
and artificial and slick.

1783
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:13,400
But that puts a distance between
me in the film in a way that

1784
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:16,400
again, I go back to Raiders or
even Temple of Doom, a movie I

1785
01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:20,240
have all kinds of problems with.
But I am on that rope bridge

1786
01:45:20,240 --> 01:45:23,040
across that chasm at the end of
Temple of Doom.

1787
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,320
I am feeling the heat of the
fires in the temple.

1788
01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:30,320
I am feeling the humidity of the
jungle in that film.

1789
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:35,000
And so here again, I think it's
a it's a testament to what Lars

1790
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:38,000
von Trier made a whole
documentary about, which is a

1791
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,880
film called The Five
Obstructions, which is that the

1792
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:45,200
the greatest creativity comes
about under pressure, or as the

1793
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:48,880
great Wendell Berry would say,
the it's the impeded stream that

1794
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:52,800
is the one that sings.
It's creativity that is trying

1795
01:45:52,800 --> 01:45:57,000
to that is wrestling something
is the creativity that that

1796
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:00,360
gives us the best work and the
best revelation because the the

1797
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:02,600
artist is discovering things
along the way.

1798
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:06,800
And so this film is such an
interesting mix of his strengths

1799
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:10,720
and his weaknesses.
But I'm so glad, lad, to get

1800
01:46:10,720 --> 01:46:14,120
back to where I started with
this, this rambling conclusion

1801
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:16,720
here.
I'm, I'm just so pleased that

1802
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:21,160
it's as good as it is coming so
late in his career that he's

1803
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:24,520
still, that he's clearly having
these emotional epiphanies and,

1804
01:46:24,520 --> 01:46:29,320
and interpretations of his early
life with an old man's wisdom,

1805
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:33,040
with a lot of love and a lot of
compassion.

1806
01:46:33,040 --> 01:46:36,040
But that he was really pushing
himself as a filmmaker to do new

1807
01:46:36,040 --> 01:46:37,800
things here that he hadn't done
before.

1808
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:41,600
And, and that is why at times, I
think it's some of his finest

1809
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,960
work.
It'll be really interesting if

1810
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:49,440
he remakes Bullet to see if he
imposes limitations on himself

1811
01:46:49,440 --> 01:46:52,680
so that we can feel those tires
spinning in the dirt.

1812
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:56,480
Yeah, or.
Whatever he takes on next,

1813
01:46:56,480 --> 01:47:00,200
whether his his next UFO movie
is going to to have the kind of

1814
01:47:00,200 --> 01:47:04,960
magic that that I think is close
Encounters does in ways that no

1815
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:09,560
other film has achieved since.
Yeah, ET two in a lot of ways as

1816
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:13,280
well in that regard.
And he may not have John

1817
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:17,440
Williams going forward, right?
So it'll be interesting to see

1818
01:47:17,440 --> 01:47:22,160
if he starts paring back or if
he starts trying to find other

1819
01:47:22,160 --> 01:47:25,800
tools to replace those things.
I'm kind of hoping he pulls

1820
01:47:25,800 --> 01:47:27,680
back.
Yeah, yeah.

1821
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:32,200
And I think I think with this
one too, it's it's got it is his

1822
01:47:32,200 --> 01:47:37,040
memories, you know, and so think
of a lot of the quality of

1823
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:42,920
things are kind of have that
memory Sheen to them that kind

1824
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:47,440
of tends toward that more slick
look, you know, even talked

1825
01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:50,400
about.
I cast, I cast Gabriel LaBelle,

1826
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:52,920
who's a little bit more good
looking than I was back then.

1827
01:47:52,920 --> 01:47:57,200
And, you know, you you cast kind
of good looking people to play

1828
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:00,880
the memories and you kind of
kind of have this this

1829
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:05,200
fantastical sort of look that he
and Kaminsky and their

1830
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:08,720
collaborations have have leaned
into a lot over the course of

1831
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:12,680
his career is all through this
that that fits well with the

1832
01:48:12,680 --> 01:48:15,520
memory.
But but yeah, you know, the, the

1833
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:21,440
only, the only thing I could see
the the quibble that might come

1834
01:48:21,440 --> 01:48:25,520
up up with this one is, you
know, the, you know, just the

1835
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:29,840
episodic nature, you know, may
or may not work for for people.

1836
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:33,160
It it works fine for me.
But and then the ending is a

1837
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:38,680
little bit not the not the final
like see like sequence, but just

1838
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:41,520
like you end with you got the
bully thing.

1839
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,320
You got the thing with his mom.
You jump for it a year.

1840
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:47,160
You have the thing with his dad.
It's a little bit like broken up

1841
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:50,000
and it feels a little bit
removed from the the thread of

1842
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,240
the rest of the movie that
that's there.

1843
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:57,560
But but man, that closing shot,
I love the little let's move,

1844
01:48:57,680 --> 01:48:59,760
let's move the camera down to
the horizon.

1845
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:01,200
And that's something he came up
with.

1846
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:03,840
It's that intuition.
He came up up with that on the

1847
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:07,680
spot on the day like, hey, let's
let's see if we can do this

1848
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:11,320
adjustment to kind of go along
with the John Ford advice and it

1849
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:14,720
it kind of takes you out of the
movie in a in the best way, you

1850
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:17,240
know, and and reminds you that
you're.

1851
01:49:17,240 --> 01:49:19,960
Watching it makes you feel like
you're sitting next to him

1852
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:24,320
because, you know, we're
watching young Spielberg walk

1853
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:28,840
off to the horizon.
But then that that makes you

1854
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:31,880
self aware that we're watching a
movie and that he's the one

1855
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:34,680
making the calls, and it's
almost like he's next to you,

1856
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:36,960
sort of elbowing you.
Yeah, I actually thought that

1857
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,720
that made me feel closer to him.
Yeah, yeah.

1858
01:49:41,200 --> 01:49:44,320
Unexpectedly, as as meta as that
moment is, yeah.

1859
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:46,040
Absolutely, yeah.
I loved it.

1860
01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:50,760
It made me It made me like grin,
you know, ear to ear watching

1861
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:52,360
that final shot.
I I think.

1862
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:57,920
But yeah, you know, just my
final thought is, is something

1863
01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:00,920
that Spielberg has said a lot
over the years that he talked

1864
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:04,080
about again with this movie.
He he likes to say that I've

1865
01:50:04,080 --> 01:50:07,960
never been to a shrink and that
storytelling and making movies

1866
01:50:07,960 --> 01:50:09,960
as his therapy.
Yeah.

1867
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:13,600
And, and really like it.
It was making me think of that.

1868
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:17,600
You know, that might be a cliche
thing to say for anyone but

1869
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:20,880
Spielberg, you know, and you
know, there's a lot of artists

1870
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:25,320
that that would be true for.
But but just in this series,

1871
01:50:25,320 --> 01:50:29,680
particularly going through all
of his films, I find that to be

1872
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:34,160
such a a huge truth that you can
see as a thread throughout his

1873
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:36,840
filmography.
And I think this is kind of, you

1874
01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:41,840
know, the skeleton key to all of
that this film is it unlocks so

1875
01:50:41,840 --> 01:50:46,520
much about who he is and all the
rest of his movies, going all

1876
01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:50,720
the way back to duel and going
going even all the way back to,

1877
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:55,240
you know, the really bad quality
TV movie Something Evil that he

1878
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:58,160
made, you know?
The first time I saw it, the

1879
01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:01,960
first 3 words I put on letter on
my letterbox notes were the

1880
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:04,840
Rosetta Spielberg.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1881
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:07,800
It really is the the the key to
all of it, as you said.

1882
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:11,320
Yeah, and, and you know, with
that, you know, people often

1883
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:14,080
say, and I think it's true about
this as well, that the most

1884
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:18,200
personal stories, the most
specifically personal stories

1885
01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:21,600
are often the most relatable.
And I think that rings true for

1886
01:51:21,600 --> 01:51:24,480
this one too.
So I'm just glad, like you said,

1887
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:28,000
you know, my I think my final
thought goes a lot in line with

1888
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:30,160
what you said.
I'm just glad we have this.

1889
01:51:30,160 --> 01:51:33,680
It's, I think it's, it was a
very special movie for

1890
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:35,760
Spielberg.
And I think it's a very special

1891
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:39,280
movie for Spielberg fans too,
that, you know, it's a gift to

1892
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:42,760
himself and a gift to his fans I
think is what this movie is.

1893
01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:47,120
Do you, where do you kind of
rate this in his filmography?

1894
01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:51,920
Is it?
Well, that's a good question and

1895
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:55,160
as I am an obsessive list maker.
Same.

1896
01:51:57,200 --> 01:52:03,640
I'm sure that I'm sure I have a
letter boxed if anybody wants to

1897
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:06,680
track me down on the letterbox.
Yeah, I'll make sure to link it

1898
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:11,080
in the.
Letterbox.com/jover St.

1899
01:52:11,480 --> 01:52:17,200
J Overstreet, All lowercase.
I'm scrambling through my tags

1900
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:18,400
here.
Yeah, here, here it is.

1901
01:52:18,440 --> 01:52:21,400
OK, so I don't know how up to
date this is, but let me see if

1902
01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:25,120
it rings true for me.
I've got the Fablemans at #7

1903
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:28,080
yeah, maybe even higher than I
expected on my list.

1904
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:31,440
And yeah, this is, this is the
most up to date version of this.

1905
01:52:31,440 --> 01:52:34,560
I've got Raiders at #1 and that,
that will always go

1906
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:36,600
unchallenged.
I think it's such a formative

1907
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:38,400
film for me.
And I've, I've been so

1908
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:41,360
dissatisfied with all of the
Indiana Jones sequels since

1909
01:52:41,360 --> 01:52:44,040
then, including Last Crusade.
I have a lot of problems with

1910
01:52:44,040 --> 01:52:46,200
that.
I enjoy it a lot, but it doesn't

1911
01:52:46,200 --> 01:52:49,720
feel like it takes place in the
same world to me as Raiders.

1912
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:54,760
The close Encounters, Empire of
the Sun, ET and Jaws, those are

1913
01:52:54,760 --> 01:52:57,760
my top five.
The Schindler's List, partly

1914
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:00,440
because of its cultural
importance, its historical

1915
01:53:00,440 --> 01:53:02,640
importance, and then the
Fablemans.

1916
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:05,000
And after that, that's where it
starts to get murky for me.

1917
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:08,880
But I would probably pick
Lincoln, Catch Me If You Can and

1918
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:12,920
Munich.
Yeah, but ask me tomorrow when I

1919
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:15,440
might replace Munich with Saving
Private Ryan.

1920
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:18,280
I love seeing Munich that high.
Even the BFG which I really

1921
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:20,840
like.
Yeah, love seeing what about you

1922
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:24,880
that high Munich is Munich is.
I'll probably reflect on this

1923
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:29,480
and the epilogue episode, but I
think Munich will end up being

1924
01:53:29,480 --> 01:53:31,960
my biggest surprise of the
series.

1925
01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:33,960
It was, I had never seen it
before.

1926
01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:37,440
It was a blind spot and I
thought it was incredible and

1927
01:53:37,440 --> 01:53:42,680
was just taken aback by how
relevant it still is today.

1928
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:45,320
But yeah, that that one I have a
little bit.

1929
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:50,640
So I my hot take is that his
last two movies are two of the

1930
01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:53,800
best ones he's ever made in West
Side Story in the Fablemans.

1931
01:53:54,240 --> 01:54:00,440
I my top, my top like probably
6:00 or 7:00 or 8:00 or so or

1932
01:54:00,440 --> 01:54:05,880
probably could move any, you
know, anywhere on any given day

1933
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:09,800
depending on how I feel.
I have Jaws at the top and it's

1934
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:12,520
always been my favorite
Spielberg since I saw it.

1935
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:16,040
I didn't.
So I did not grow up with the

1936
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:19,920
Indiana Jones movies.
I saw them I think when I was a

1937
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:24,480
kid, but I didn't really grow up
watching them a whole lot or

1938
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:26,800
having them be a big part of my
childhood.

1939
01:54:27,560 --> 01:54:31,080
So funnily enough, Last Crusade
is my favorite Indiana Jones

1940
01:54:31,200 --> 01:54:33,720
movie.
I know a lot of people that

1941
01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:37,280
would say that.
I think emotionally it really

1942
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:39,760
connects with people, especially
fathers and sons.

1943
01:54:39,760 --> 01:54:43,880
Yeah, it's also, it's also very,
very funny in a, in a way that

1944
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:47,800
Raiders doesn't even try to be.
Yeah, but but yeah, I have.

1945
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:52,240
So I have the Fableman's at six,
right ahead of Last Crusade at

1946
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:53,640
seven.
Yeah, cool.

1947
01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:56,960
And then right above it is
Jurassic Park and right above

1948
01:54:56,960 --> 01:55:01,360
that I have West Side Story,
which I was just I just loved on

1949
01:55:01,360 --> 01:55:03,680
this rewatch, but.
Yeah, I need to see it again.

1950
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:06,440
I was.
It blew my mind technically.

1951
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:10,560
Yes.
The the story gave me trouble

1952
01:55:10,560 --> 01:55:12,560
but.
But the story, I need to see it

1953
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:13,320
again.
Yeah.

1954
01:55:13,360 --> 01:55:16,920
And I and I talk about that on
that episode whenever it's not

1955
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,360
out yet as we recording.
But my my big thing with that is

1956
01:55:21,360 --> 01:55:26,160
I think it's more of a Romeo and
Juliet story problem than it is

1957
01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:31,160
a problem with the movie or, you
know, Spielberg or, you know,

1958
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:34,480
any of that.
So yeah, I was able to work past

1959
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:37,880
that, those issues with this
past viewing and loved it.

1960
01:55:37,880 --> 01:55:41,800
So ET and Schindler's List are
are are at 2:00 and 3:00 or

1961
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:45,760
Schindler's List in ET for me.
So I don't know if I'll

1962
01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:48,400
rearrange that before I do my
epilogue episode.

1963
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:55,240
I'm going to think real hard on
my final rankings, but yeah, I

1964
01:55:55,240 --> 01:55:59,640
only have, I only have one movie
of Spielberg's that I think is

1965
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:03,160
just outright not a good movie
and pretty much all the other.

1966
01:56:03,360 --> 01:56:06,720
You could probably guess which
one it is if you if you had

1967
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:10,880
enough guesses, but.
I mean I, I I may have a

1968
01:56:10,880 --> 01:56:14,280
different pick than you for what
the bottom 3 would be, but but

1969
01:56:14,280 --> 01:56:18,320
what's yours?
My my absolute bottom is 1941.

1970
01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:21,120
Oh wow.
That is the one I haven't seen.

1971
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:25,000
For for a movie that's supposed
to be a straight comedy, I don't

1972
01:56:25,320 --> 01:56:28,160
I don't think I laughed maybe at
all.

1973
01:56:28,160 --> 01:56:33,640
And watching it, it was fun to
like the the technical side of

1974
01:56:33,640 --> 01:56:37,680
things was a lot of fun in a in
a lot of ways, you know, with

1975
01:56:37,680 --> 01:56:40,240
miniatures and all that kind of
stuff.

1976
01:56:40,360 --> 01:56:43,520
Yeah, just doesn't work.
I also my my bottom three are

1977
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:46,840
that the terminal and always.
Oh wow.

1978
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:48,640
OK.
And then if you if you were to

1979
01:56:48,640 --> 01:56:52,440
count his, his section of the
Twilight Zone movie, I would

1980
01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:56,160
have that down there as well.
I haven't seen always in so long

1981
01:56:56,160 --> 01:57:01,080
that I can't I I, I can't say
anything about it confidently.

1982
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:03,800
I just remember it didn't make
much of an impression on me it

1983
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:04,760
looks.
Great.

1984
01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:07,040
But yeah.
It, it didn't make, I don't

1985
01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:09,480
remember making it making me
angry.

1986
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:13,240
And I, I mean, I'll have to go
listen to your episode on Ready

1987
01:57:13,240 --> 01:57:15,520
Player One, but Ready Player 1
made me angry.

1988
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:20,720
Yeah, it's, it's Ready Player 1
is, is the next one on at the

1989
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:23,920
bottom there.
Yeah, there's, it has a lot of

1990
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:25,920
issues.
Now, I will say this about Ready

1991
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:29,320
Player One.
It is a time where Spielberg is

1992
01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:33,520
trying to like push into some
technological limitations.

1993
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:36,440
He's he's trying to do something
and I respect that.

1994
01:57:36,640 --> 01:57:40,840
I just don't think it works, and
it's not the technical side that

1995
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:44,520
doesn't work.
I think the CGI stuff is pretty

1996
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:47,880
impressively done.
It's the story that's just.

1997
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:51,320
Yeah, it's the storytelling, and
I will always hold a grudge

1998
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:53,640
about what he does to the Iron
Giant in that movie.

1999
01:57:54,480 --> 01:57:59,080
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the the glory of the

2000
01:57:59,080 --> 01:58:02,880
Iron Giant, is it the arc of the
story that leads us to a place?

2001
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:07,160
Yeah, I am not a gun.
And anyway, that's, that's for

2002
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:08,640
the conversation for another
time.

2003
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:12,600
Yeah.
You know, given how much he's

2004
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:14,960
given us, I'm these are not
serious grudges.

2005
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:21,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, that's great to hear.

2006
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:24,120
I don't really have anything
else for us to discuss.

2007
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:26,080
We've we've done it all, I
think.

2008
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:28,360
Well, I will look forward to
talking with you in the future

2009
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:30,920
at some point.
Yeah, in a podcast or otherwise,

2010
01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:35,200
about the new Paul Thomas
Anderson film, because I'm sure

2011
01:58:35,240 --> 01:58:37,560
you, you probably noticed this
last week.

2012
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:39,880
Steven Spielberg can't stop
talking about it.

2013
01:58:40,480 --> 01:58:44,120
No, I did not notice that.
He interviewed Paul Thomas

2014
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:46,360
Anderson on stage, I guess for
the.

2015
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:50,880
DGA premiere.
Yeah, yeah, it's called 1 battle

2016
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:52,680
after another I think.
Yeah.

2017
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:55,560
And he said he'd already seen it
three times, and he thinks it's

2018
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:57,760
one of the greatest American
films of the last.

2019
01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:00,560
I can't remember how long. 2025
years, yeah.

2020
01:59:01,440 --> 01:59:04,480
You know, funnily enough, Paul
Thomas Anderson interviewed him

2021
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:05,960
about this movie.
Oh wow.

2022
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:08,520
On the DGA.
The DGA has like the the

2023
01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:12,520
director's cut, OK, They have a
podcast form and I think they

2024
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:14,560
have the.
The I had forgotten all about

2025
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:15,360
that.
I remember now.

2026
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:18,120
I remember reading that but I
never saw the interviews so.

2027
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:20,760
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
Well, yeah, I'll, I'll be

2028
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:22,680
looking forward to that.
I'm looking forward to that

2029
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:25,640
movie too.
So yeah, I'll, you know, make

2030
01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:30,040
sure you go follow Jeffrey on
Substack and on Letterboxed and

2031
01:59:30,080 --> 01:59:33,160
be tuned in for his new book.
I'm going to make sure to put

2032
01:59:33,240 --> 01:59:36,800
links to all that in the episode
description so you can just open

2033
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:39,720
that up and click the links
instead of trying to remember

2034
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,440
URLs.
Or for that matter, trying to

2035
01:59:42,440 --> 01:59:45,160
remember that ridiculously long
title that I gave the book.

2036
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:47,560
But I will say it does have a
couple of prominent mentions of

2037
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:49,600
the Fablemen's, even if it
doesn't get a whole chapter.

2038
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:52,560
But yeah.
Forward by Matt Zahler sites who

2039
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:57,000
was probably my definitely my
main source for the Wes Anderson

2040
01:59:57,000 --> 01:59:59,680
series.
Oh, man, yeah, he is a such a

2041
01:59:59,680 --> 02:00:02,520
great writer and and such a
great supporter of writers.

2042
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:05,800
I'm I'm very, very grateful that
he.

2043
02:00:06,480 --> 02:00:08,000
He was willing to participate in
this.

2044
02:00:08,120 --> 02:00:08,720
Yeah.
Yeah.

2045
02:00:08,840 --> 02:00:11,840
So.
Yeah, make sure you go follow

2046
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:15,280
Jeffrey on all all of the
things, click all the links that

2047
02:00:15,280 --> 02:00:16,720
I put in the episode
description.

2048
02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:19,240
But that's all we have for this
week.

2049
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:24,520
Next week, I'm not sure if I'll
have a supplemental episode or

2050
02:00:24,520 --> 02:00:29,160
if we'll go straight into the
Spielberg epilogue, but but

2051
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:31,800
yeah, you'll find out so.
But that's all we have for this

2052
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:35,560
week for Jeffrey Overstreet.
I've been Eli Price and you've

2053
02:00:35,560 --> 02:00:37,640
been listening to the
establishing shot.

2054
02:00:37,800 --> 02:00:44,680
We will see you next time.
We were happy here for a little

2055
02:00:44,680 --> 02:00:47,520
while.
But look, I think it was this

2056
02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:49,560
way.
Better to be king for a night

2057
02:00:49,640 --> 02:00:50,640
than smoke.
For a lifetime.