The Post (w/ Roslyn Hernandez)

Eli (00:02.952)
Hello and welcome to the establishing shot a podcast where we do deep dives and two directors and their filmographies I am your host Eli price and we are here on episode 109 of the podcast Just chugging along in our Spielberg series as usual as we have been for a long time Kind of like a a quick future self edit

I have already recorded the Ready Player One episode and I'm pretty... and there was a movie draft with that and I'm pretty sure I announced that as episode 109 because I recorded them backwards and got my numbers mixed up and so just future editing myself that's actually gonna be episode 111 so when you hear me in that episode I'm just wrong unless I've edit it and post and fix what I say then just ignore all this but

This is 109 of the podcast and we are going to be covering Spielberg's movie The Post today Excited I was excited to revisit this movie. I saw it in theaters when it came out and I haven't seen it since so I was yeah, this was one of those that I was like I'm ready to revisit this movie Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep gonna be fun, but to do that with me I have a new guest

on the show this week. Rosalyn Hernandez is joining me. She is a Latino public theologian, content producer, creative strategist, and spiritual director passionate about resourcing emerging adults as they navigate faith, identity, and justice. She does a lot of sociocultural awareness and integrating kind of spirituality and activism.

kind of a holistic approach to all those things. And yeah, just oftentimes kind of doing what we do here, looking at the intersection of life and culture and a lot of times specifically theology and culture too, which is cool. And so, yeah, I'm excited to introduce Roslyn. I would love for you to kind of expound on some of the work that you do and how

Eli (02:27.072)
Maybe start with just in general and then maybe how it relates to film, how you kind of got into doing that sort of work integrated with looking at film and reviewing movies and stuff.

Roslyn Hernández (02:44.94)
Yeah, so I actually started with film instead of theology. I have a degree in film and media studies from UC Santa Barbara and I think film and media studies was my first love. like intellectual love and artistic love. I've always been passionate about the art form of image and how

cultures represent themselves and process themselves through their cultural products, one of them being film. So yeah, I do come from a background where film...

magazines, books, television, is all kind of looked at through a sociological lens to see what the culture is thinking about itself and how we are processing what in a lot of film circles we call the human condition. And so that really came together with theology and with social justice for me more in seminary where I

Well, I guess I would say officially or formally in seminary because I was already thinking integratively about how these two come in contact or intersect with one another which which is something that I actually honestly often had frustrations about when I was younger

I come from a Christian tradition where the secular is over there and the sacred and church stuff is over here. And I always thought that it's important for us to think of ourselves holistically and to engage all aspects of ourselves in a way that is not just holy or biblical or faith-based, but also in ways that are...

Eli (04:22.037)
Hmm.

Eli (04:28.308)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (04:51.56)
everyday political or cultural aspects of ourselves. And so now, yeah, I got to do that for Real Spirituality, which is now Bram Studio at Fuller Seminary. And then I got to do that with...

I can't remember the name. I'm blanking on the name right now. I got to do that with Think Christian as well. Now I'm writing on my own, doing podcasts with other people. But I also produce podcasts. I do always try to take some of that narrative, storytelling, and sociological aspect of processing what we're experiencing in life

Eli (05:16.864)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (05:39.6)
social justice and activism and putting it all together in ways that particularly younger audiences, young adults, millennials and Gen-C can understand and engage with.

Eli (05:53.0)
Yeah, yeah, very cool. And so, you know, you, you have this background in film, and then you got into theology, and then now you're like, okay, how do I, how do I like, marry these two loves that I've developed? What, what does that look like? Like, what, what sort of things have you written that? Or what's your, I guess,

The better question is, what is your framework or methodology through which you bring those two lenses together to look at film with that kind of theological, holistic view of life and analyze film through that lens as well? What does that look like for you?

Roslyn Hernández (06:49.507)
Yeah, so I've written about pop culture.

I've written about one of the really fun things that I got to do, I think it was last year actually, was write about Beyonce's latest album, the country music album that she had and write about how that is, you know, like theological in some ways or how that was theological for me. But it also goes the other way around. We do have hermeneutics or ways of reading the Bible that can be informed.

Eli (07:10.761)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (07:25.541)
by the ways that we approach film and the ways that film is studied. So it kind of does go both ways and it's helpful for us and which is something that I will talk about later or that something that came up for me as I was watching the post that really something that my

Eli (07:31.229)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (07:49.806)
background in film and media studies has helped me with is in media literacy, which we needed both for engaging cultural media products as we needed for engaging the Bible, which is also a cultural media product for specific people in history.

Eli (08:05.107)
Sure, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I really like how oftentimes, I guess the way I like to think of it is like when you watch film or really like interact with any kind of art film, oftentimes it kind of, there's like a dialogue.

with that art and your life and you can kind of like bring who you are to it and it kind of brings something out of the arts whether it's film or something else that maybe someone else wouldn't see because you're bringing yourself and your life to it but also like it's bringing something to you too that maybe you had never considered before a different perspective

maybe an encouragement or a confirmation or you know and so it's like this dialogue that you have with you know in our specific context of what we're doing with film you know and I've always like really loved that and tried to lean into that kind of dialogue you have with art and specifically film for me so yeah I really really appreciate you know

kind of that perspective that you're bringing. could people, where's a good place or central place for people to kind of keep up with what you're working on and that sort of stuff.

Roslyn Hernández (09:38.362)
Yeah, so I am on social media for now. Social media is also getting a little tricky, but yes, I am on Instagram and my handle is at Roslyn Hernandez and I have a website, so that will continue on and that's Roslyn Hernandez dot com.

Eli (09:42.871)
For now.

Eli (09:48.51)
Yeah.

Eli (10:04.283)
great yeah and i'll make sure to link those in the episode description so people can find them and click them easy and and go follow but follow for now or you know bookmark the website you know

Eli (10:21.759)
I, my wife is texting me in all caps code red, there's a lizard in our bedroom. And so I'm going to run, try to catch a lizard and I will be right back. because. Podcasting is great, but I have to live with my wife and she does not want a lizard in our bedroom. so hopefully I will only be gone a minute and then we'll get into your Spielberg memories. I'm sorry.

Roslyn Hernández (10:39.087)
You

Roslyn Hernández (10:44.619)
Okay. It's okay.

Eli (22:10.59)
Sorry about that.

Roslyn Hernández (22:12.529)
It's all good.

Eli (22:14.196)
I did not catch it, I don't know where it went, so...

Roslyn Hernández (22:19.12)
no.

Eli (22:19.84)
Yeah, it's not good. Um, okay. Uh, alright. We were about to do your Spielberg memories. Okay. I'm gonna pause for a second and then I'll just jump back in.

Eli (22:39.954)
So speaking of interacting with film, we of course are in our Spielberg series covering all of his films. We're nearing the end. The post is, I think, as of this recording, fourth to last. And yeah, it's nearing the end of his career. But I always like to ask my first time guests what their

kind of first memories are of the director we're covering so do you have any kind of first memories of watching a Spielberg movie or realizing that Spielberg was a guy you know?

Roslyn Hernández (23:22.609)
You know my actually my the first thing that came to mind is actually not something that he Directed but it's something that he produced and it's not a movie. It's a television show and it's It's gonna Like age me. It's very much of my generation It's the Animaniacs, which what is a cartoon series that was out in the 90s and

Eli (23:36.029)
Okay.

Eli (23:44.809)
Yeah!

Eli (23:49.93)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (23:52.206)
Actually, I even wrote a paper about the Animaniacs when I was an undergrad. That's how much I like it. It's one of my favorite cartoons. And I've just recently watched that series that's on Netflix called Titans the Rise of Hollywood and the Warner Brothers story is like really prominent, a lot more prominent than it was in my like film history classes. And so I'm seeing, I'm kind of like thinking about the

Eli (23:57.108)
hahahaha

Eli (24:10.271)
Okay.

Eli (24:17.951)
Sure, yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (24:22.099)
Animaniacs in a different light after knowing more about the history of the Warner Brothers and some research that I did on my own. So yeah, Yakko, which is one of the three Animaniac siblings. It's like, Okay, interesting. Got it. Got it. Yeah, so that's my first memory or the first thing that I thought of but I think film wise It was it's probably Indiana Jones

Eli (24:33.195)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (24:39.605)
Hahaha

Roslyn Hernández (24:52.079)
or Jurassic Park. I think those are the biggest films of my childhood that were directed by him.

Eli (24:53.675)
Yeah.

Eli (24:59.369)
yeah yeah i think that's kind of the the typical response is depending on what generation you you're from it's either indiana jones or jurassic park or both sometimes but yeah i mean that's like i know mine personally is jurassic park but i mean there's so many you could you could say et i know there's like kind of the

Indiana Jones generation is the Indiana Jones is the one that stood out but ET was big too and Yeah, it's it's It's just incredible how kind of we're here Fifth, know, we had this is being recorded and released in 2025 it's the 50 year anniversary of jaws and so we have like five decades of Spielberg being kind of

on top now and so it's just cool to see a director like him that kind of spans generations like every every like maybe not like i don't know if gen z has like a spillberg movie maybe west side story maybe is there gen z's spillberg movie i don't know i need to i need to kind of like pick some brains of maybe this can be a project

Roslyn Hernández (26:23.238)
Jitsi folks.

Eli (26:24.894)
This can be a project for you too, after this podcast is pick some brains in the culture and see what the Spielberg movie of the Gen Z generation is. like, I'm assuming we're in the, if you're mentioning Animaniacs, I'm assuming we're in the same millennial generation. so, you know, Jurassic Park is kind of ours and the one before us was like, Andi and ET.

Roslyn Hernández (26:44.785)
Yeah.

Eli (26:54.504)
and so yeah, I'd be curious to see if they have like a big one that stands out like that was released in their lifetime or if it's just kind of reaching back to those old ones and still kind of claiming those as the Spielberg movie of their youth I don't know, that'd be interesting to pick some brains and see I might start doing that

But yeah, let's jump into the post.

Yeah, this, it began with kind of a young screenwriter named Liz Hannah. She was in her early thirties, had never written really a screenplay before, had been to film school and done some producing. But yeah, this was really her first script. And yeah, I mean, basically,

eventually gets into the hands of Steven Spielberg and the rest is history but yeah I mean this is one of those you know when you look through the the crew of this movie it's kind of like the typical Spielberg crew so you've got Janusz Kaminski at the camera as the DP you have Michael Kahn doing the editing

There's been a couple movies in a row where he has a co-editor with Shara Brashear, so I don't know if this is like a passing of the baton when Michael Kahn isn't editing anymore than Sarah Brashear will edit the Spielberg movies if he keeps making them. John Williams doing the score of course. His kind of typical sound guys with Gary Reidstrom and Richard Hems who I imagine were just like

Eli (28:51.4)
recording a bunch of typewriters for this movie. Rick Carter is the production designer and Anne Roth doing costumes. I think she's worked with him before and yeah, I mean it's really Ellen Lewis does the casting. She does a lot of spillboard casting and I mean this is just like when you watch this movie and

how kind of like just it's a movie, like it's a film. It moves and it's it's efficient and it looks really good. And there's not really, to me, like there's not really a lot of wasted space in this movie. And to me, just speaks to kind of this, it's kind of like a veteran crew that just like knows how to turn those gears and pump out a movie.

Yeah, do you ever get much into like the functioning of the kind of like machine that makes the movie? Have you ever like dug into that at all in your writing?

Roslyn Hernández (30:04.428)
I do sometimes. It depends on the role. I do like to look at diversity and who's doing the casting or that kind of stuff. That kind of tells you some stuff about the decisions that were made. But I haven't dove super deep. I mean, I'm...

Eli (30:06.1)
Yeah.

Eli (30:12.948)
Mmm.

Eli (30:18.718)
Yeah. Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (30:30.544)
I don't know that I entirely subscribe to the a-tour theory.

Eli (30:37.288)
Sure. Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (30:38.288)
because a film, yes, Spielberg is the director, he's bringing his vision, he has multiple people make a film. It's not a one person job. So I do like to recognize that other people are involved, but I don't often.

Eli (30:51.007)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (30:57.385)
Yes.

Roslyn Hernández (31:00.824)
track many people's careers unless I'm like very interested in like in them. Like costume designers I might track their careers or like look up or see like this this looks familiar. I think I've seen this before then I look things up but I haven't really tracked like entire crews or or collaborators long-term collaborators with Spielberg.

Eli (31:05.215)
Yeah.

Eli (31:13.662)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (31:21.173)
Yeah.

Eli (31:25.918)
Yeah, yeah, and that's one thing that's cool doing these series is you start to like pick up on like patterns of like Who he's working with and like what sort of projects like he might bring on a certain? Like crew member for a kind of There's like a pattern of this type of movie. He has like these people on and this these other because Spielberg, you know, he makes a variety of genres and styles of movies and so

But yeah, he definitely, it is a cool thing, whether it's, you know, think Spielberg and another that I've done, Wes Anderson, they really kind of have like a thread of collaborators through their careers. And to me, that's like a really cool like community of artists like

kind of working long-term together is like a cool idea to me so I just like really appreciate that when you can kind of find the people that like speak like you kind of develop a language with them and you can kind of be on the same page artistically and

without having to go over every single detail and kind of understand what each other would do and what each other would want. I just think that's a really cool thing about film that a lot of other art forms don't, not very many art forms have to that degree of such a large group of people coming together to make some sort of art.

And one of the cool things I think in the special features they mentioned on like the last day of shooting, they brought together all the women to take a photo of all the women in the cast and crew all together. And they were taking the picture and then they were like, I guess someone was like counting and they realized, there's actually more women working on this movie than men.

Eli (33:40.897)
So I think that's a good sign I get. It's still like Spielberg directing, White Guy directing, there's John Williams doing the music, but you have a woman that wrote the screenplay that this is built from, a crew apparently full of women. So that's always, I guess, reassuring at the least to hear that.

Roslyn Hernández (33:45.554)
You

Eli (34:09.856)
You're getting at least a lot of that perspective on a film's kind of centered around a woman. And so, yeah, I appreciated that aspect. But yeah, let's talk a little bit about the cast. Because this is a really great cast, for one thing, I think.

I don't know how I don't know if many people would disagree with that, but it was kind of Spielberg kind of like Talks of it. This doesn't happen really I've never really heard a director say this but he was kind of like yeah all of my first choices were just available and we we just Made all came together and made it. So that's like a really crazy thing with this movie that It was you know

Roslyn Hernández (34:43.282)
You

Eli (35:06.944)
was kind of he had finished filming ready player one ready player one was in its long you know cgi post-production phase and he heard about this he kind of read the script and i think in february of 2017 and was like i want to make this movie and put it out this year and so and so yeah and

Somehow like the studio with the ready player one just I guess you can't really tell Spielberg what to do So they were like, yeah, I guess you can do that while we're doing the post for ready play for one and so during the time after filming ready player one he was able to Cast the movie get all the pre-production work done film it edit it and release it all before

Ready Player One was like done and ready to release. And yeah, and one of the reasons that we'll get into later is because of how he and many others that were producing the movie felt that it was so pertinent to the moment and wanted to get it out as soon as they could. But yeah, that that

Probably this first part of the casting helped move it along when you just call people and they're like, yeah, I'll be there.

Roslyn Hernández (36:37.37)
I mean, helps, you as you said, you can't really tell Steven Spielberg what to do and you call an actor and they're like, yeah, I'll work with you, you know, they'll make themselves available.

Eli (36:43.07)
Yeah, yeah Yeah, and I think so like obviously we'll probably talk Meryl Streep first now I'm pretty sure I remember her saying yeah, I read the script in March and by May we were we were filming And so it's yeah, it's fast very fast. But yeah Meryl Streep plays Katherine Graham

She had some chances to work with Spielberg before she denied the role of Heinemann in Minority Report. It was a smaller role and she didn't do that. She was the voice of the Blue Fairy in AI. So she had done some work with Spielberg, but just voice work. So she was, she had kind of talked about, you know, she was excited to actually like

do a actual work with Spielberg on this movie and she had actually been interested in this script before Spielberg was involved it had kind of been you know it had been circling around Hollywood the script and she had already read it I think at some point and or had heard about it and was interested in it and yeah so

I think another thing was that Meryl Streep, if you remember back in 2017 at the Golden Globes, she had a very pointed speech that did not name the president of the time and maybe this time too by name, but was definitely a speech that may or may not

definitely did get a typical tweet that said quote Meryl Streep, one of the most overrated actresses in Hollywood unquote, as if that has any weight to it at all, to anyone who knows anything. But yeah, so she was excited to work with Spielberg and then just excited about the project.

Eli (39:02.154)
kind of and the subject matter of it to working on this. And yeah, mean, she got to work researching, reading K. Graham's autobiography, watching Archive footage as actors do, you know, when you're playing a real person. And yeah, how did you feel about

Meryl Streep in this movie. I may go without saying or asking, but we do have to talk about it.

Roslyn Hernández (39:36.21)
Yeah.

Yes, I hadn't seen the film before and I don't think I was super aware of this historical event. So I kind of went in pretty blind or new to the topic. So, and I feel like I've seen Meryl Streep films before.

Eli (39:41.961)
Okay.

Eli (39:53.6)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (39:57.908)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli (40:07.466)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (40:07.985)
But, and maybe this is just a testament to how good of an actor she is that I am not like, yeah, Meryl Streep, like all the roles that she's been or the characters she's played. But it really felt, I really felt the subtlety of her acting in ways that at first,

Eli (40:28.489)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (40:34.567)
made me very frustrated of course with the power dynamics, the gender power dynamics and just everything else. But that same subtlety using that she is able to...

Eli (40:37.136)
Right, right.

Eli (40:44.112)
Yes. Yes.

Roslyn Hernández (40:59.613)
Capture not just.

Roslyn Hernández (41:06.311)
what Katherine might have felt in that time. But also what women would have felt like at that time. And the soft power that I think the film kind of shows throughout the narrative.

Eli (41:14.388)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (41:20.746)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (41:31.636)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (41:35.476)
She often tends to play small and to quote unquote save face for the men in the film. And maybe even like whispers, you know, like very tentatively she says something like, but, or, you know.

Eli (41:44.51)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (41:56.478)
perhaps or something like that and then does a total switch on the power dynamics or asserts her authority. So it was really interesting to see especially as the narrative itself made that switch. But yeah, I really enjoyed her portrayal here.

Eli (41:57.906)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (42:17.992)
Yeah, yeah, one of the things that was interesting to me was, so in the special features, you know, her, her kid, like her son, and one of her daughters is in, and, and they're kind of in interviews, and her daughter was talking about how, and it's probably, she probably talks about it in her autobiography, I would imagine, that she really had a lot of self doubt and

was just like, I guess from her daughter's perspective, a lot of times her like timidity and self doubt was kind of like a central part of how she saw her mother, or like, I guess like her perspective on her seeing her mother doubt herself a lot and watching her. And the other thing she said out of that was she had to work really hard to build confidence.

And so I was watching this after the movie and just thinking back on how Streep kind of like throughout the movie kind of does You can see this like subtle building of confidence Kind of behind this timid veneer that she of self-doubt and you know submissiveness that she kind of wears that it kind of like and it starts like popping out more and more

you know, as you go through the film kind of up to that climactic event. And I don't know, like one of the things that I, that it kind of made me like chuckle to myself is it ends with her like the most assertive she's been the whole movie, you know, with the, kind of, I guess, like antagonist of sorts character of, Arthur Parsons and kind of telling him how it's going to be.

and giving her peace and then she's kind of like well i'm going to bed and she walks out but what i love visually is now the power dynamic has like completely flipped she leaves the room and then the men are just left like what baffled kind of with nothing to say i think fritz the tracy letts character kind of like chuckles

Eli (44:45.843)
But the rest of them are just kind of like baffled and don't know what to do. And I just love like, it's kind of like, it's almost like comical, that kind of power dynamic flip that happens in that moment. But it's not as powerful without how Streep subtly and slowly builds to that. And I guess it's in the script too.

Roslyn Hernández (45:00.697)
and even

Roslyn Hernández (45:08.677)
and it's not true.

Yeah, and it's not a drastic change. It's very much like in character and even ironic because she does it in a very like quote unquote feminine way. She's like, okay, I'm going to bed now, you know, and so it's something that like a woman and even they say it before like the men's at a dinner party the men start talking about politics and the women are like, okay, that's our cue to go and so she's like, okay, this is my cue like I made the decision I'm going to bed. I'm gonna go do women things and like go wash my face or

Eli (45:13.158)
Yeah, mm-hmm.

Eli (45:20.699)
Yes. Yeah.

Eli (45:39.377)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (45:40.327)
or whatever kind of thing. But what I really liked about that scene for me as I was watching and this is more into like acting and blocking so I don't know if you want to like wait for this or we can. Yeah so there is there's one character of Fritz who is like close advisor of hers. If you notice Fritz and Kay are always like two

Eli (45:53.306)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, jump into it.

Eli (46:02.772)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (46:10.3)
shot like takes their their two shots are like on the same level or he sits down to be on the same level with her or they're like standing up on the same level with Bradley and with other men they either like walk in front of her they block her out they edge her out of the screen or they stand over her and she's like sitting down at the end of this scene she leaves and she walks up the stairs to her bedroom and all the men are left there

Eli (46:19.655)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (46:28.798)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (46:40.15)
looking up as she leaves the screen and goes into her bed. like at the end, the physicality of the scenes change because now she's the one in power and they are the ones that are left looking up at her instead of all the men throughout the whole film. not all of them, except like one or two. Looking down on her or like Bradley eventually being on par with her whenever he realizes, oh, she's actually like being a really brave person for all these things that she's doing.

Eli (46:44.851)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (46:57.236)
Yeah.

Eli (47:04.5)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (47:08.596)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (47:10.29)
because of his wife who told him. So that was just like a really great blocking and acting and a thematic physical blocking for me that was like, nice.

Eli (47:12.069)
Right, right, right, as it goes.

Eli (47:22.996)
Yeah.

Yeah Yes cinematic, like Visual like and when you were saying that I was remembering too The way the shot ends the camera is above them. It's like the camera is looking down on all of them and so that's just another like visual aspect of Now we're like looking down on all these These men,

like the audience too through the lens of the camera and so yeah I mean there's so many little visual cues there that man just Spielberg is really like when he's on he really is on in all of that like visual language and I think he is in this throughout this movie the other I guess the other like

The that Meryl Streep specifically brought to this role is... So this movie could very easily get over full of Oscar quote unquote moments.

And I loved that when it came to like the big decision, you know, are we going to publish or not? It like it's building up and building up and like, I think in a lesser director and screenwriter and actresses hands, this would have been, you know, the big Oscar moment where she gives the big confident Oscar speech, you know, and she just kind of like stammers through like, yeah, let's, let's.

Eli (49:09.971)
let's do it, let's publish it and totally underplays like your expectations of how she's going to be in that moment and yeah Meryl Streep just like nails it and it made me smile because yeah she just like undercuts all of your expectations for that moment but it's like so in character and so perfect and still like

It's like that she's unsure, but she's going to make a decision and it's going to be her decision and not anybody else's. And yeah, I just loved that moment too. That I think Meryl Streep nailed it on that.

But yeah, mean, so the other big player in this is obviously Tom Hanks, his fifth film working with Spielberg, and his last one to date. I don't know if they'll ever work together again. I guess it's possible, but yeah, Tom Hanks, this just kind of feels like par for the course, I guess, for Tom Hanks. It's like a really...

kind of perfect Tom Hanks role where he gets to like say a lot of good lines and kind of do some sort of like strange voice intonation Tom... I don't know why Tom Hanks loves changing his voice so much but he's like he's kind of like lockjawed in this movie I don't know if you noticed that he's like like through the whole movie but

I don't know, it works. What did you think about Hanks in this one?

Roslyn Hernández (50:59.092)
Yeah, um, I don't have a lot. mean, yeah, he's just big tummy. So maybe that's why he he changes his accent because he's basically just being himself but with a different accent.

Eli (51:04.305)
Yeah.

Eli (51:10.641)
yeah he's like i'll get bored if i don't change my voice yeah i mean he in one of my resources it said that tom hanks was it used the term so relaxed that he invited the whole cast of the editorial team to his home the week before shooting and they kind of spent a few days just like going over characters and stuff

And so he's just like, yeah, y'all come over and we'll talk about the characters. He's like on set in the special features, like telling everyone about the different kinds of typewriters, because apparently he's a collector of typewriters and is a nerd nerding out over typewriters on set. Yeah, just being Tom Hanks. Yeah, he's good. And I think.

Roslyn Hernández (52:01.172)
Great.

Eli (52:06.632)
I think what's especially good is that him and Meryl Streep together, they work off of each other so well. And that's another thing that stood out to me is in Bridge of Spies, I remember Spielberg talking about when Tom Hanks and Mark Rylance were on screen together.

He almost he he started realizing these two guys are like playing off of each other so well Maybe I don't need to do as much cross-cutting and over-the-shoulder shots for the dialogue scenes Maybe I just need to have them both in frame and so when I was watching this and you right off the bat Meryl Streep walks in and sits down with Tom Hanks

at the breakfast table for their first interaction that you see together. And I think he starts and ends the scene with a couple of cross-cutting over-the-shoulder shots in the dialogue, but the vast majority of that whole scene is just both of them sitting in frame. And I was thinking, I know exactly what he's doing. He's letting just these two kind of top-tier actors be on screen at the same time and just letting them

play off of each other and no need for editing, no need for any of that. I'm just gonna put them both in frame in the master shot and let the audience kind of have fun watching this dynamic. So I thought that was a great choice and kind of showed how well they worked together as actors. I don't know if you noticed that particular thing or not, but...

Roslyn Hernández (53:56.666)
I did notice that, I also noticed that like whenever he goes to her house the first time and he's trying to tell her to talk to McNamara, I noticed, I think that's the first or second time that I noticed

Eli (54:03.86)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (54:16.753)
in this film there's these weird three-quarter over the shoulder angles they're not quite over the shoulder and they it's like three quarters of like the person that's in this case he's standing up but now that you're saying like like he trusts them both to carry the scene together without having to cut back and forth it makes a more sense but to me it was just like in that specific scene

Eli (54:22.494)
Mhm.

Eli (54:30.751)
Yeah.

Eli (54:39.55)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (54:46.931)
You can feel the tension because yes, he is a man trying to tell this woman what to do, but also she's the boss. So he kind of confronts her, three quarters of the way. He's not really looking at her. He's kind of looking down. And then she gets up, looks at him, brings the power dynamic of I'm the boss here, and then she leaves the room again. And she asks him, well, what about when you were in...

Eli (54:52.839)
Right.

Roslyn Hernández (55:13.109)
friends with Kennedy, like what about that? So yeah, it's the dynamics between the two. it changes, as it progresses, it's really interesting and fun to see.

Eli (55:24.136)
Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, and I think where the editing comes into play is less like in those dialogue scenes and more and what about you and Kennedy and then like It either the next shot or like within the like after the next like little sequence What do you see? Well, you see Tom Hanks like picking up a picture of him and his fan like wife and the Kennedys and contemplating

what you know you heard Kay point out to him and so that's like that's where the editing is doing its work is in kind of connecting the progression of the character's growth and because you'll have the same thing Bradley or like push her on something and then she's kind of wrestling with that the next time you see her and so I think that's you know part part

Due to the editing part due to the way they structured the screenplay You know, they brought they brought in Josh singer who wrote spotlight to kind of help Liz hannah kind of build out that the kind of structure of that too because this is a two-week span you're covering and like you it's a lot of just like conversations and people sitting and

Roslyn Hernández (56:46.781)
Yeah, not very interesting.

Eli (56:47.314)
and rooms and so yeah so you really have to like how are we going to structure this to like really move things forward in the story

Roslyn Hernández (56:58.163)
And I think that also was done in the editing. A lot of the action happens in moving from one place to another by either gophers, messengers, or tracking boxes of documents.

Eli (57:01.492)
Yeah.

Eli (57:09.983)
Mm-hmm

Eli (57:14.248)
Yes, yes. Having the camera run down a hallway with the guy that's like delivering the, you know, the new papers to what's the, I can't remember the New York Times got Shaheen or something like that. She and yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, all kinds of stuff like that. The camera's like doing all of that.

Roslyn Hernández (57:29.936)
Sheen.

Roslyn Hernández (57:38.813)
Because all the other times you just have people talking to each other. You gotta put some action in there.

Eli (57:42.162)
Right, Yeah, exactly. Were there any other actors that stood out other than the top two to you in this one?

Roslyn Hernández (57:55.798)
Um, I don't think so. can't remember. just remember, I mean this is 2017. It's not even that long ago, but I saw, who was it? The guy that plays...

Eli (58:04.958)
Right.

Roslyn Hernández (58:18.613)
Parsons, I think I watched the intern a while ago and he's one of the main characters and then I was like, there he is like a lot younger But I was like it wasn't even that long ago so it was just like there's an actor that I've seen in something else and and it was interesting. Yeah, but

Eli (58:25.427)
Okay.

Eli (58:32.66)
Yeah

Eli (58:36.636)
Mm-hmm Yeah, Bradley Whitfield is is that actor Yeah, Arthur Parsons. He's like the kind of the antagonist ish kind of guy on the board I think But yeah, yeah, he's like that character is one of the is like an example of

Roslyn Hernández (58:43.559)
I don't know.

Eli (58:59.74)
there's these different people that we can't have all of these characters so let's kind of smash all of these real life people into a fictional character so that and then he kind of plays as like the foil the the antagonist of sorts to to streep kind of throughout the movie to k i guess

Roslyn Hernández (59:19.911)
Okay, I found the actor I was... and it was... The Resident actually, not The Intern... The Internism film. The The Resident is a medical drama. And actually it's McNamara. The guy that plays McNamara, Bruce Greenwood. I was like, there's that guy.

Eli (59:27.529)
Hmm

Eli (59:31.09)
Yeah, Bruce Garingwood. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and he's good in this movie. I almost wish the movie would have leaned a little bit more into that dynamic of him and Kay and like that struggle of like, can I still like love my friend through this situation? This person that I've like built a relationship with and like our families have been close.

Maybe that's like a little bit of a different movie than we got but but it would have been interesting to See if the story lean into that a little bit more I guess

Roslyn Hernández (01:00:04.117)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:00:10.485)
And I also wonder if that was just more on her side than his side. I mean, definitely she's like, hey, there is history here. They were there when her husband died. But I think he has seen them as newspaper owners from day one. So that's more strategic on his side than like, we're friends and we've known each other for a really long time.

Eli (01:00:17.112)
yeah, yeah.

Eli (01:00:21.396)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:00:27.381)
Hmm.

Eli (01:00:33.062)
right yeah yeah for sure and yeah it's it would have been interesting yeah and i i do think you're right like it's more of k's wrestling than this guy is probably he's already made his decisions and has his kind of you can tell he's kind of set in his opinions of what he did so i don't think he's going to be wrestling too much with

that relationship but but yeah yeah i can let's let's go into the production this was like i said it was a very quick production they i think they were only filming for 44 days and then which is his like most tight filming schedule since dual

which was a made for TV movie so he was on a TV schedule for that and so this is like his tightest filming schedule since all the way back at the beginning of his career with with Duel and so yeah this kind of it kind of shows I guess like we really want to make this movie and get it out there

But yeah, mean they finished shooting this in July of 2017 and by the end of the year the movie was out. And Spielberg didn't even read the script until February and so yeah, I guess that's like 9, 10 months I guess or so from like start to finish, which is crazy.

Roslyn Hernández (01:02:18.496)
It helps that a lot of it was indoors, inside shots. I mean, you can tell there's only a couple, not many outside back lot studio areas, so yeah.

Eli (01:02:21.919)
Yeah, it does.

Eli (01:02:27.786)
Yeah

Yeah, lot of the... so they did like the Vietnam scene was in Purchase, which is like there's the State University in New York at Purchase and there's like a nearby like field that they use to stand in for Vietnam. So that was one exterior and there's not a lot for that was probably just like a couple of days of shooting.

And then other than that, the only exteriors are like the outside of the Bradley house or the outside of the Supreme Court, which those are just like shooting a house in Brooklyn or the Supreme Court was Columbia University. So yeah, those are really the only exteriors and it's very, very little. They did use

these like abandoned floors of an AT &T building that was being converted to something else for that was in White Plains New York they use that for like a lot of the interior offices so like the editorial offices, Kay's office, the DNC office that we see at the end, the Rand Corporation offices all of that stuff is in this like these abandoned floors that

weren't being used in this building. So it's always fun to see, I don't know. I guess it would be interesting. I've never been on the backside of that of who's making the call. Hey, we see you're redoing this building. Do you have any floors we can use? How did this conversation start? I don't know. Yeah. But yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:04:23.894)
location scouting, yeah, yeah.

Eli (01:04:30.304)
The look of this film is really interesting, know, it's a lot of vote. One of the things I thought was interesting, and I'd like to hear your kind of view on is both Spielberg and Janusz Kaminski, the cinematographer, talked about how they wanted to both like evoke the 1970s and in the way they shot it and obviously like

create sets that were made to look like Washington DC in the 70s but at the same time even like Janusz specifically said this movie felt so relevant to today that I didn't necessarily like want to light it like I would normally light a period movie and so a lot of his lighting he kind of tries to stick to more modern how you would

know, like a movie set today. And so, I don't know, I guess like I didn't really think about that in watching the film, but in hindsight, it does feel like even though it's set in the 70s, I guess it does have like some sort of vibe of being very modern in a way. I don't know, did you get that vibe at all?

Roslyn Hernández (01:05:49.855)
Yes, but I also got a different vibe.

And what I was impressed by was there seems to be a change in lighting as the tension builds. we start inside Shawson specifically, Bradley's office is very brightly lit and as you know, get like the news breaks out and they get the papers, his office gets darker and darker in other areas. you know, we go to

Eli (01:06:04.287)
Hmm

Eli (01:06:14.453)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:06:22.516)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:06:27.032)
Kate's house and we are like in her office for a while. And there's very warm tungsten-y lighting. But what I I

Eli (01:06:32.778)
Yeah.

Eli (01:06:37.503)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:06:41.154)
saw, or what I started seeing was almost this chiaroscuro, which is like this Carvajo like lighting kind of thing, these very dramatic lighting situations. And it kind of starts with when I can't remember the other Ben.

Eli (01:06:53.236)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:07:04.906)
the other Ben goes to see Dan and he goes to see Dan at the hotel and everything is dark and you start getting those half-lit faces all the time except for Kay. Kay is always very brightly lit because she's like truth and like naivete but everyone else yeah

Eli (01:07:07.516)
Yeah, and the hotel. Yeah.

Eli (01:07:14.708)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:07:19.412)
Yeah.

it's like it's i was going to say it's very like german expressionist like knight of the hunter-y like what's the the movie i'm trying to think of the how the like quintessential german expressionist movie that i can't think of the name of in this moment

Roslyn Hernández (01:07:44.576)
I don't know why mine keeps going to the cabinet of Dr. Caligari. That's it? Okay.

Eli (01:07:49.504)
That's what I was trying to think of, yeah. The quintessential German Expressionist movie. Using the shadows on faces and stuff. It's like, yeah, I definitely saw that.

Roslyn Hernández (01:07:56.062)
You

Yes, yeah. But this is very soft. mean, yes, like German Express is more harsh lighting. This one is soft, but also you have like the...

Eli (01:08:06.782)
Sure, yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:08:11.892)
the shadows and people. And then you start getting the dramatic poses, postures as well. And you start getting the actors blocking in such a way that it's like Caravaggio has like these groups of people like in different layers and heights in a scene or in a frame all kind of pointing in one direction and then like one person being, you know, the center of the frame.

Eli (01:08:19.83)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:08:41.906)
of the image and the lighting just being so dramatic and that for me was really interesting to see. It kind of peaked for me in that scene where she like the last scene where she makes the ultimate decision. She's even like the only one dressed in white. There's all these other there's all these men like surrounding her like hunching over her and around her and there's like very dramatic postures and lighting and she's like the one that is

Eli (01:09:03.882)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:09:11.736)
holds the gravitas of that scene and the lighting of that scene with like her white dress her like Fully lit face and then stands up and gives their back to them to make like to to announce that she's made a decision But yeah, like that the lighting For me, that's what I liked about it got dramatic

Eli (01:09:14.422)
Hmm.

Eli (01:09:21.056)
Yeah.

Eli (01:09:35.562)
yeah yeah and even like when you were saying that i was thinking about when she does like over the phone make the decision to publish and you kind of have that like descender rig camera that's like spinning around her and it is this very like dark kind of like dramatic you have those like oranges and shadows and yeah it

It kind of helps build the tension too with the way it's kind of like lit and framed in those ways. It adds just that extra oomph of tension to moments where that... know Spielberg is like... when he's on his A game, he's like one of the best I think at building tension. And I think this movie is like a very...

a very good example of that because this movie shouldn't feel as tense as it is but he even subtle things at the beginning when Ellsberg is leaving with the documents that he's stolen and he pauses at the door for a second and just that like it's only like what like three seconds three to five seconds in reality but it feels so long it's so tense

And then like the the kind of pause before Kay finally makes her decision to publish There's this kind of like tent and even I think John Williams said he had this like sustained note that he like sustained until she finally spoke what her decision was so you have the score kind of playing into that to But yeah all of that so good

Roslyn Hernández (01:11:26.583)
Which the score was interesting for me because it was very subtle.

Eli (01:11:32.563)
Mm-hmm. I thought so too.

Roslyn Hernández (01:11:33.172)
I didn't feel the score and so much and I wonder if part of that decision is this is a film about journalism and journalism seeks to be as subjective as possible without manipulating the audience and having so much more of a in your face kind of score would be like blatant manipulation but also like you have Meryl Streep and

Eli (01:11:55.68)
Sure.

Roslyn Hernández (01:12:03.447)
Panks like playing, you know, so you don't really need a lot of a lot of handholds for the audience to like know how to feel or or react

Eli (01:12:05.835)
Tom Hanks. Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (01:12:15.637)
Yeah, and I think too there's a lot of there's a surprising amount of like sound Design in this movie like you wouldn't think in a movie about journalism But it being set in the 70s, you know when you're in the newsroom, there's constant noise happening and so like if you were to have like a score trying to compete with the sound of a hundred typewriters typing, know, it would really be

it would probably be too cacophonous and distracting and so they probably were thinking about that sound element too how are we going to marry this sound with the score so that they're not competing with each other because really the score only comes in big in those dramatic moments that are quiet

the other moment I can think of is like at the very end when she's like announcing the Supreme Court decision in their favor and the score kind of swells in with this like victorious sounding like kind of John Williams classic kind of sounding score but that's like a quieter moment it's not like there's not a lot going on there but yeah

I know I don't have you for too much longer, so I just wanted to get maybe your perspective on some of the themes real quick that like, so we can either talk about kind of the, we've talked a decent amount about Catherine Graham and like, but we can talk more about that or we can talk about

the pertinence of the freedom of the press and speaking truth to power. What do you feel like you is speaking to you most in this moment?

Roslyn Hernández (01:14:10.305)
Hahaha

Yeah, I think the freedom of the press is quite pertinent at the moment. We happen to have the same precedent as we did when this film was made.

Eli (01:14:18.044)
Yeah? Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:14:25.139)
And just thinking about what is happening like even today, like this week, there is a representative being held in the Texas House of Representatives because she won't sign a permission slip to be followed around.

Eli (01:14:32.074)
Yeah.

Eli (01:14:45.93)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:14:47.069)
you know, and not a lot of noose outlets are covering that. And so I think like for me this made me think of a couple of things. Like yes, we need freedom of the press. It made me question how free our press is at the moment. And it made me think about the democratization of noose.

Eli (01:14:51.434)
Yeah.

Eli (01:15:05.152)
Yeah, same.

Roslyn Hernández (01:15:13.117)
and who tells the news, who gets to tell the news made me think about media literature. And it made me think about how dangerous it can be to be a journalist. In some places, being a journalist is one of the most dangerous jobs that people can have.

Eli (01:15:30.708)
Yeah, absolutely.

Roslyn Hernández (01:15:32.312)
it made me think of the journalists that have been killed by Israel in Gaza, which Brown University put out a study showing that more journalists have been killed in Gaza than have been killed in several world wars and other wars. And so it's...

Eli (01:15:54.528)
Hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:15:59.316)
a dangerous thing to speak truth to power. We know that and we see that and yet many more of us need to not just speak truth to power in the sense of like having an institution behind you and doing that in a formal way, but even just being a witness of what is happening is becoming dangerous nowadays.

Eli (01:16:02.849)
the app.

Eli (01:16:25.301)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:16:29.127)
We need to, like yes of course not everyone can just record things because of different ways that people are being racially profiled but whoever can should be have the courage like Kay did.

Eli (01:16:35.083)
Sure.

Eli (01:16:49.727)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:16:51.081)
to do something and sometimes the courage it takes is to take out your phone and record something that's happening that shouldn't be happening.

Eli (01:17:00.425)
Yeah, yeah, and it's it's interesting like you know, this was the the 70s and Really like, you know the newspapers were were it you know, that was That's where you got your news. I mean there's there's TV news back then too But like the real journalism I think was still seen to be like in the

the big papers, like the times and that sort of thing. People like knew who those journalists were, like they knew their names back then, I think. I don't know, there's also like, it made me, while you were talking, it made me kind of think about how there's a certain sense to which like we have such an inundation of recordings.

that it's almost like hard to dig through the noise of it all and find the truth and i think that's one reason why like journalism is so important because that's what a good journalist does is they yeah you might have like all these recordings of this situation that happened from all these different vantage points and hearing different people say different things but like

it's it's easy to like read what you want into all of that noise and what a good journalist I think does is they take all of that noise they kind of like push out the stuff that's just like I guess like actually just noise and dig down to what's actually happening and what is like the crux of the matter and I don't know I think

I think one of the reasons like our our media news is so like wild and and just like divided is because is a little bit because of that because everything is so noisy it's harder to like find people that are like really trying to do some like

Eli (01:19:23.197)
get like some audio engineering on on what we're hearing in the world, you know It's tough. It's just tough. It's just tough for like the average everyday person Like who do I trust like who can I even listen to? that's not like beholden to This politician or that part, you know this political party or you know, or that's not

I don't know, you know what I mean? It's tough.

Roslyn Hernández (01:19:54.743)
Yeah, and I think that's...

why I think of media literacy is so important for everyone. Because if you start following someone on social media, let's say for example, or even a newspaper who is a reputable source, and you start seeing the kind of headlines or the kind of messages that they start putting out, after a while you'll get a sense for what this, how this person thinks.

Eli (01:20:00.885)
Yeah.

Eli (01:20:12.426)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:20:26.698)
the biases that they hold because nobody, no newspaper is actually objective and no person is objective. We cannot be. We come with our own social location and context and that's how we interpret what we experience. So I think for me what a good journalist does is be aware of their own social location and their own conscious and unconscious bias.

Eli (01:20:33.768)
Right.

Eli (01:20:40.242)
Agreed, yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:20:54.085)
and they are good synthesizers. They...

get all the information, they're truth seekers. They seek a lot of stuff, they seek everything, they get a bunch of information, and then they corroborate between each of those things, right? They're like, this person says this, this other person says this, there's this camera angle, or there's this other things. They put the picture together, and then they synthesize what actually happened for everyone else to clearly understand what is that happened. And that's where people can

Eli (01:21:02.186)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:21:08.532)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:21:25.385)
Right.

Roslyn Hernández (01:21:29.914)
have a, they can become informed and make more informed decisions about whatever the issue may be. But if we are not literate, and if we are not taught to be literate, then we can't recognize the patterns of someone.

Eli (01:21:37.29)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:21:54.239)
saying opinions instead of facts or we can't recognize when someone is biased and they don't name it or when we are in an echo chamber and we're like well these are the news like this is what i think so this should be right or when our channels aren't actually news but actually entertainment and news is just in their name

Eli (01:21:56.659)
Right.

Eli (01:22:03.978)
Yeah.

Eli (01:22:10.687)
Yeah.

Eli (01:22:18.736)
Right, right. Yeah, and I think another big thing on that is like the distinction between information and truth. A lot of people, it's easy to get a bunch of information, but like you said, like synthesizing that information or like distilling it down to like, what is the truth found in all of this information?

different than just like throwing around information that like backs up what you may already believe or or that sort of thing and so you know living in the information age doesn't actually mean that we're we have more like truth just because we have more information at our hands yeah I

Yeah, I love that. was going to ask one more thing along all of these lines. And related to the film, it really takes, obviously, it's kind of like this teamwork that like grows and builds between Kay and Ben over the course of the movie. And Ben obviously has like his strong opinion on what needs to be done.

But at the end of the day, it's Kay's call. It's her decision to make. And my question for you, and I think you're like a perfect person to like answer this question is, does... And I kind of know the answer's not gonna be... The answer's gonna be like, yes and like it doesn't have to be, but does it take someone who...

who has experienced the some sort of what's the way to put it like Kay has experienced in her lifetime just being stepped down and looked stepped on looked down on kind of in all ways except for explicitly except maybe sometimes explicitly being told that like her opinion doesn't matter

Eli (01:24:40.512)
Does it take someone who is coming, is able to rise out of that oppression to speak the truth to power, to be able to make those hard decisions? Have you noticed that there's more people that have come out of some sort of, whether it be gender dynamics or

racial dynamics and is able to speak truth to power because of what they've experienced. Do you find that that's something that happens often?

Roslyn Hernández (01:25:19.542)
Well, I think in case case.

Eli (01:25:22.41)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:25:25.366)
She also had power. She had influence and privilege, yes. She was the owner of the newspaper, so that's power. So I think in a sense she recognized her power, which is a bit different than someone who would be like.

Eli (01:25:27.284)
Yeah, she had a lot of privilege and power that she grew up with.

Right? Mm-hmm. Right.

Eli (01:25:42.634)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:25:51.19)
more disenfranchised, like a person of color who is also a woman, you know?

Eli (01:25:54.0)
Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Roslyn Hernández (01:25:58.242)
So I think in that sense, it takes everyone to speak truth to power. It takes people that have influence and privilege to listen to people that don't have privilege and influence. And it takes the people that have been marginalized and oppressed to also speak up. And the thing is that many times the people that are oppressed do speak up.

Eli (01:26:02.867)
Right.

Eli (01:26:11.434)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:26:26.079)
Right.

Roslyn Hernández (01:26:26.519)
but their people don't hear them.

Eli (01:26:28.563)
Right.

Roslyn Hernández (01:26:29.325)
And it's not that we need people to say like, I'm going to speak for the people that don't have a voice. People have voices. We just need to platform their voices. The people that have the privilege to do so. So it takes everyone to speak to its power. But I think mostly takes people that have some power to listen to those that don't have it and to be able to help others to help move things forward.

Eli (01:26:39.326)
Yes. Yeah.

Eli (01:26:51.38)
Mm-hmm, that's a great point.

Eli (01:26:57.544)
Yeah, no, that's a great point and and I think that's like that distills down where something that I was like trying to put words to but like Wasn't quite getting there. I think you just helped me kind of finally find what I was trying to to think through. yeah I and I think this movie is So like pertinent so important. it's you know, I was listening to some

podcast reviews of like back in 2017 when the post came out and you know people are talking about this, you know, this has a shot at a best picture nomination and All this but one particular podcast. I remember I don't remember which one it was but they were talking about how is this movie gonna play in 10 years or 20 years? Is it is it so like caught up in?

our 2017 moment that it might lose that aspect. There's aspects of that are always inspirational and relevant, but that kind of political moment aspect of it, will that kind of just be lost?

I kind of like wrote down in my notes like little did they know nine years later here we are even worse than then you know so yeah it's still irrelevant unfortunately and yeah I think

Roslyn Hernández (01:28:22.265)
Yeah.

Eli (01:28:36.064)
I wrote down... let's see if I can find it... there's this... I will end with... I'm going to read this quote from David Erlich in IndieWire. I really enjoy his... I don't know if you've ever read his film criticism.

David Erlich but he's one of those guys that like has strong opinions and sometimes like I disagree with him greatly and sometimes like we're in line but like even when we disagree I always love his like how he thinks through it and like writes about it so but this is a it's it's a little long quote but it's

Roslyn Hernández (01:29:07.637)
Okay.

Roslyn Hernández (01:29:15.139)
Okay.

Eli (01:29:20.81)
I think it's a good way to like end our conversation and get your thoughts. He said, quote, once upon a time, a movie about the Pentagon Papers could have been framed as a cautionary tale, but now it only makes sense as an unabashed crowd pleaser. In that context, Spielberg is naturally the right director for the job. A master chef preparing an entire feast inside a pressure cooker, Spielberg shoots the post like every shot was delivered to the studio on a deadline. And the result is a film that combines

the Spartan clarity of hard journalism with the raw suspense of an Indiana Jones adventure. His film simmers with liberal indignation only boiling over at the very end and the days leading up to Graham's decision are chaos told with clockwork precision." And I think, well, I think I love about like that quote to me is like, he's

He's pointing out the fact that this movie could have easily been, at any other point in time, a cautionary tale sort of film. But with Spielberg directing in this particular political moment, it's almost like a joyful cinematic.

like response in a way because the movie is fun it's funny it's fun it moves and it's in all in all of that it's like saying something it's almost like it's this kind of persuasive like fun movie in this particular moment that yeah it's it's like it's very

Indiana Jones adventure at times with the camera moving around Ben Bradley's house with like a handheld camera as they're like researching Pentagon papers and making that fun somehow But still like It it took like in that moment that's so dark it's like it's almost more important for this movie to

Eli (01:31:39.164)
be a little bit of less of a dark movie in a dark moment and more of like a lighter movie that still takes the subject very seriously and speaks persuasively against what's happening in the moment but does it like in kind of the opposite way with lightness and fun and the gravity of it all doesn't weigh you down if that makes sense like you don't like I guess like another movie

very similar content like the journalism and revealing something spotlight It kind of leaves you weighed down with the weight of of it all and this movie you feel more like uplifted At the end And I think that's that was important for that moment. I think it is for this moment, too. There is still kind of a hope that you see in this movie and

I know, I just wanted to, before you go, get your take on all of that.

Roslyn Hernández (01:32:44.385)
Yeah, I think that's definitely true and that's what movies are made for. So I don't see what's wrong with that. They are made for the audience to enjoy. And in it being a historical film in which majority of the people will know part of this history.

Eli (01:32:50.345)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eli (01:33:08.563)
Mm-hmm.

Roslyn Hernández (01:33:09.143)
or at least the ending, and because it ends very tongue-in-cheek, it ends with...

Eli (01:33:12.391)
Yeah. It's a prequel.

Roslyn Hernández (01:33:15.705)
Yeah, it's a prequel to what we all know, know, Watergate. With Nixon trying on this phone call to make sure that nothing else like this happens and then right away it's already happening. It does give hope. It gives hope and it gives the audience a, but we know better that in the end the truth prevails.

Eli (01:33:18.707)
Yeah.

Eli (01:33:28.958)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eli (01:33:40.563)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:33:44.253)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:33:45.612)
And I think in moments like that, there's nothing wrong with that kind of goal even in telling a story.

Eli (01:33:55.284)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:33:58.586)
and being able to tell the story for a moment in the way that this was told because films don't always get to do that. They might be inspired by a moment and they don't get out to the public until like two years later, one or two years later. And this one was able to meet its moment when it was needed and it still be relevant. So I think that's a good thing.

Eli (01:34:07.121)
No, yeah.

Eli (01:34:13.407)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:34:18.302)
Yeah.

Eli (01:34:23.359)
Yeah, yeah, and it you know, just makes me respect Spielberg a little bit more because his is an example of like using your power to get a because the normal everyday like director, you know Isn't going to get this movie and be able to say we're putting this movie out this year. It's Really like only guys like Spielberg can can do that and a studio be like, yes, sir, you know And so, know it just

I guess it kind of like raises the respect level of him who like is always like if not always hitting the mark with Trying to like speak into situations. I think he's had his misses with that But he's always sincerely trying even in his misses and I think this was a hit I think he like

nailed the moment and used his his kind of mogul hollywood power to to make it happen so gotta respect the the man stevie so yeah i any any final thoughts before before i let you go roslyn

Roslyn Hernández (01:35:33.195)
Yeah

Roslyn Hernández (01:35:43.257)
Yeah, this was really fun. really enjoyed watching a film like I did back in my school days, like pausing and being like, wait, what did they say? like, wait, am I seeing this correctly? Like, yes, it was fun to be a bit more critical. I mean, it kind of just happens in my brain. Like once you learn to watch films in a certain way, you can't undo it. Like, you know, we see camera angles, like we see, you know, all those things, the lighting and all of that.

Eli (01:35:56.095)
Yeah, great.

Eli (01:36:05.118)
Mm-hmm.

Eli (01:36:12.712)
Yeah.

Roslyn Hernández (01:36:13.211)
But it was nice to do it in a more intentional way this time.

Eli (01:36:18.269)
Yeah, well I had fun. I think you brought some great insight that I really appreciate to the conversation and Yeah, maybe we'll we'll be able to bring you back on sometime in the future. We'll see I I don't know what's in the future of the podcast, but you never know but Thanks for Roslyn for coming on. It's been it's been really fun

Roslyn Hernández (01:36:38.297)
you

Roslyn Hernández (01:36:44.675)
Thank you for having me.

Eli (01:36:51.392)
Uh-huh.

Eli (00:07.298)
So Hannah came across the story of Kay Graham in a book and read her autobiography, which Kay had wanted the Pulitzer Prize for, Catherine Graham, is, and knew that this was potentially going to be her first screenplay. A little backstory on Catherine Graham. She became the owner and publisher of The Washington Post at the age of 40.

or 46 I think after her husband's suicide in 1963. Her dad bought the post back in 1933 and then entrusted it to his son-in-law, Catherine's husband, and Kay loved her father's her father's choice, and never expected to be running the company. She thought her husband was a great choice. He was smart, capable.

Keeping good in the family that sort of thing and this unexpected You know event happened and she ended up with this Company in her lap and she had to decide am I gonna sell it? Am I gonna keep it in my family to try to keep that legacy alive? And decided to keep it and it was her first, you know, the way her daughter described it was it was her first real job You know, obviously she's

Raising kids which is a job and she's doing I mean she she did a lot of charity work to With they they ran some like, you know rich circles powerful circles Just being you know growing up in that sort of world and But this was her first like I'm going I'm in charge. I'm going to work every day Yeah, a proper job I guess you could say

And man in the midst of this she has to confront the White House with two scandals the Pentagon Papers Which is the subject of this movie in 1971 and then Watergate in 72 which the end of the movie teases and all this while turning the post into a paper that mattered and all within a world of condescending men who looked down on her and so

Eli (02:30.894)
Yeah, you know, Liz Hannah comes across also the autobiography of the editor Ben Bradley and kind of said that that unlocked the key to the story or that was the key to unlock the story of her script. She said, quote, realized the movie wasn't only about Kay finding her voice in the Pentagon Papers and the publishing of them, but it was the origin story of this superhero team that was Graham and Bradley, unquote. So Kay hired Ben in 1965 and

always had counted that as one of her best decisions she made. So yeah, Hannah writes the script in the summer of 2016. By October 2016, Amy Pascal, who used to work for Sony Pictures and now has her own production company, Pascal Pictures, won a bid for the script and she kind of felt a kindred spirit with Kay when she read the script.

Her husband was actually a New York Times reporter, so she had that connection. Her dad worked in the same office as Daniel Ellsberg at Rand, so a lot of connections there. And then, yeah, she begins to circle it around Hollywood. And in February of 2017, she sends the script to Amlin producer, Kreiger, Kristi Mikosko-Kreiger, who we've heard before, does a lot of producing of Spielberg films. And Spielberg had...

just had to cancel the kidnapping of Edgardo Morarta, a film that he was kind of in the works of getting started and kind of canceled that early 2017, reads the script for this in February and just jumps on it. The themes, hotly debated topics around the Trump administration, the quote,

Unquote alternative facts of the inauguration attendance the tweet tirades of the president at the time just really wanting to You know jump on this film and address this topic And also a lot of coincidental connections to the people he had known Bradley long before the film came about Ben Bradley that is they had neighboring homes in East Hampton on Long Island

Eli (04:51.214)
He had dedicated the film to Nora Ephron who passed in 2012. She was a journalist writer, director, you probably recognize her name. She lived in East Hampton too across the street from Ben Bradley and had worked briefly on All the President's Men. Their script wasn't used but nonetheless a lot of interesting connections there. Spielberg even said if she was still alive Nora Ephron would have directed this movie.

Yeah, a month before filming the cast is locked in You know Josh Singer brought on a writer of spotlight did work on the West Wing And yes, Spielberg really wants to bring the weight of factual accuracy to the story before filming You know, he brings things like Nixon's voice Being brought in he listened to a bunch of

recordings from the Nixon White House and incorporated that into the film. He did a lot of consultation with Post and Times journalists, Kay's son and grandson and daughter and people close to Ben Bradley and Daniel Ellsberg was brought in to consult. just wanting to bring the weight of that to the movie. But nonetheless, during pre-production,

there was some protesting from the staff at the New York Times the Pentagon paper, you know was their scoop and Their name was the one that appeared on the Supreme Court decision and they felt a certain way about it in May of 2017 so I mean there's they're not even probably filming yet some New York Times people in the Columbia Journalism Review called Spielberg's future film stupid and

took offense at Graham and the Post being put on equal footing with them. I think this is a little dumb, but whatever. Screenwriters were aware of this ambiguity and insisted that the focus is not on that sort of thing, but on explaining the paper's change in stature leading to Watergate, which I think is important.

Eli (07:12.846)
Other cast members to kind of touch on Sarah Paulson, solid background in TV. She plays Tony Bradley, Ben Bradley's wife. She actually had played the prosecutor on the Inside Look, The People vs. OJ Simpson in 2016 alongside Bruce Greenwood, who appears in the film as well. But yeah, so.

There's a lot of good, as we go through the cast, a lot of like people with a background in TV or a background in theater that they're kind of pulling from. Bob Odenkirk, who's great in this movie. He's kind of, I guess, my third favorite actor in the movie playing Ben Bagdikian. He kind of had made a name for himself playing Saul in Breaking Bad and...

Plemmons worked on that with him. There's a lot of like interconnections with people in the cast which is fun He also had a connection with David Cross. They were like this comedy duo There was a HBO show called Mr. Show and there was another sketch show they did called with Bob and David They were kind of like they talked about being nervous about Spielberg like what do you would think about hiring this comedy duo to do this serious movie but

Spielberg didn't have any idea about their connection when he cast them and didn't find out till later, which was funny And then you have Tracy Letts playing Fritz Beebe He's a theater actor A theater background obviously has been in films, but this was actually his first time starring alongside his wife Carrie Coon who? Played one of the editorial team Meg Greenfield

one of the few women on editorial teams at the time and felt kind of a kindred spirit with Kay for that reason. But yeah, they're both great in the movie. Bradley Whitfield playing Arthur Parsons who is, as I've said, is a fictional amalgamation of real people. Bruce Greenwood we mentioned. There's a few people that have been in Spielberg produced shows. Greenwood was in The River.

Eli (09:36.973)
Matthew Reese, who plays Daniel Ellsberg in the movie, was in a Spielberg produced show called The Americans. And Reese even got to like meet with Ellsberg during preparation. He talked about how he was asking Ellsberg how he felt, was he scared, and Ellsberg saying that he wasn't scared because he felt such a strong conviction about what he was doing, which I thought was cool.

Alison Brie pops up for a couple scenes as Lally Graham, the daughter of Catherine Graham. Yeah, she talked about studying her interviews and doing she even did some vocal coaching so she could match Meryl Streep, which is fun. David Cross, another editorial team member in Howard Simons. He's really good in the movie. Jesse Mueller plays Judith Martin, which is her

This is our first movie and she's great. She's one of the the reporters That comes in every once in a while Stark Sands playing Don Graham. He pops up a few times He even talked about he pulled he researched and found some of Graham's articles from 1971 and typed them out on set, which is fun We talked about Jesse mentioned Jesse Plemons He plays Roger Clark and Zach Woods plays Anthony essay the two kind of lawyer characters

Michael Stuhlbarg plays Abe Rosenthal Who's the the New York Times, you know owner publisher And then I thought I would mention a couple other like small players Will Denton was Michael the intern I thought he did a good job, you know peeking over the shoulder of the New York Times guys in the elevator and then of course Sasha Sasha Spielberg makes an appearance as the woman with the package

which leads to a funny scene. But yeah.

Eli (11:42.095)
A few other locations. The exterior of the Bradley house was shot in Brooklyn. And then kind of all around there, Steiner Studios in Brooklyn was the interiors of the Bradley and Graham homes. Just down the street you have Woodside Press is a printing company in Brooklyn. That's where they shot the lino type process of the newspaper process.

And that printing process that is and then the New York Post and Bronx is where they shot the paper presses where you know You have the papers flying through and all that so Those are a few other notable locations

Eli (12:34.786)
Yeah, Spielberg, you know, he had just gotten done with this complicated special effects film in Ready Player One and felt really free and in his element on this set. Tom Hanks talked about how he's such a good regulator of the tempo of the scenes as they're shooting and yeah, just does a great job also just he's a great actors director, very proficient notes only when necessary and yeah.

One fun fun fact they got to celebrate Katherine Garum's 100th birthday What would have been her 100th birthday on set they had a cake and Spielberg actually gave Everyone gifted everyone a subscription to the Washington Post He had even included a note with a quote from Kay that said To love what you do and feel that it matters. How could anything be more fun? Which I thought was kind of a nice little tribute

Yeah.

A few like, a few other cinematography things, just thinking about, you know, they have, one juxtaposition I thought was funny was the handheld camera when the Viet Cong attacks in the jungle, the Vietnam, and then the other time the handheld camera like kind of shows up is when they're like digging through all the Pentagon papers in Ben Bradley's house trying to do their research.

and you have this camera jostling around it all. that was a funny juxtaposition of that camera use. And you get some other fun stuff like...

Eli (14:22.924)
This quasi-documentary style, lino type and printing press stuff was fun to see. Seeing Spielberg figure out how do I make phone calls interesting. I'm gonna have Bob Odenkirk's distorted face reflected in the payphone. I'm gonna multiply the number of people on the phone with K-gram and be cutting back and forth between all of them.

I'm gonna have like a Hitchcock dial in for murder style camera circling around K. Graham while she's trying to make her decision on the phone. A lot of stuff like that, know, Spielberg just injecting energy into situations that normally would not have that much energy. And yeah, just in general, you know, with lots of time in the newsroom, Janusz Kaminski kind of talked about

how do I, this is a lot of bright, toplet rooms, how do I work with this? somehow he really makes it look beautiful. The Streep talked about how beautiful the movie is despite how often you're in offices and dinner parties. So I thought that was cool.

Eli (15:46.959)
As far as production design, have Rick Carter, of course. He talked about being draft age in the late 60s and remembers this era well. They're trying to recreate the 1971 DC. And one of the things I thought was cool was they didn't really focus on monuments, getting monuments in the movies so you're in DC, but getting that brutalist kind of architecture that is

you know, of DC's architecture and cityscape and so that I thought worked well. The design of the bullpen as they might call it, which is like the newsroom floor, was just great. Carter, know, Rick Carter makes this from scratch really. Doesn't inject much color going off of the memory of people that worked there at the time and yeah, just brings in all these old typewriters that

of course Hanks was nerding out over, used photos of Ben Bradley's office to recreate it, and even Spielberg even talked about like a friend of his that had worked there at the time, visited the set and was tearing up just it felt like so real you know which I thought was cool

some props they they did they were able to like look at the pentagon papers at the national archives to recreate those they borrowed a photocopier from i think from a museum or something like that uh... but they weren't allowed to plug it in uh... so uh... this period photocopier and so that uh... i think it was a xerox uh... but uh... they had to like a rig it with these lights and rig it so that the paper would come out

to recreate the photocopying sequence at the beginning. They even like created 30 different newspapers based on papers of the time. They were able to get some old actual newspapers from the time to have around tons of magazines, period magazines laying around. And the other cool thing about the design, know, Kerry Kuhn was just talking about Ann Roth as the costume designer.

Eli (18:07.159)
One of the things that she loved was that when you go in to like get measured and work on your costume with Anne, she like teaches you things about the character that you haven't considered yet as an actor even. Just with her research on how to costume this character. I thought that was a really cool thing that you don't really think about a whole lot.

Eli (18:35.587)
This movie, the score for this movie, first of all, this is the 44th year of Spielberg and John Williams working together, so that's pretty awesome. But yeah, Spielberg was in a hurry to get John Williams in edit. They went through the editing process of this movie, I guess pretty quick. yeah, John Williams was able to deliver the score three weeks after shooting. So really fast turnover there getting that.

Recorded it was the first time that Spielberg didn't actually get to hear John Williams do his like piano demos of themes before scoring the scoring sessions But yeah Not a lot to talk about with the scores not Terribly memorable it has its moments that it kind of comes in but yeah

Eli (19:34.8)
Yeah, this movie was released in December 22nd 2017. That was the limited release. It really got its wide release January 12th 2018. That's kind of when everyone would have been able to go see it. And yeah, it's interesting. know, this movie made 180 million point 180

$1.4 million worldwide box office domestic was 81 million And it opened number two at the box office. I believe number one was

the Welcome to the Jungle, my gosh, Jumanji, Welcome to the Jungle movie. But yeah, I mean this was a $50 million movie, opens at $19 million, gets to $180 million, so I would say that's a pretty successful Spielberg movie overall. Not the most, but it did its job.

And you know, as far as the reception to the movie goes, it's generally like really well received. The conversation called it quote, a love letter to the press and the journalistic profession unquote, variety revealed, not revealed, reveled in a vision of the hectic journalism without computers and smartphones, which is a fun aspect of the movie for sure. The French publication Liberation.

Loved the Linotype and rotary presses and early morning truck deliveries of papers the New York Times You know despite their pre-production problems welcome to the lively pace and energy They called the they said it was due to the quote virtuosic veteran crew unquote. So there you go And and then some too like noted that Spielberg has this instinct to

Eli (21:50.38)
avoid like the gravity of the subject and and not like As I'll probably talk about later not like lean out of the weight of it all but like Not make it not weigh you down with it Along those lines the Guardian said quote is chaotic the chaotic absurd moment unquote when Kay Hauntingly approves the publication is the kind of example they give

It did suffer a little bit from comparison to something like All the President's Men, which many would say is the superior movie. Some questioned if the topical relevance was enough to justify the film being made. I think now with hindsight we can say absolutely it was. It had some factual criticism. It was reproached for poorly narrating the Pentagon paper scoop, paying too little attention to Ellsberg,

Former New York Times VP James Goodell who was a legal rep for the Supreme Court in 71 Had talked about how the lawyer never mentioned the First Amendment before the Supreme Court and the post's initial offering was primarily to pay property taxes for shareholders including Kay not to hire journalists as stated in the film, so you know some people Took issue with some facts. It's one of those things

It was nominated for two Oscars. It did not get any wins. But it was nominated for Best Picture and Lead Actress for Meryl Streep as Catherine Graham. Yeah. Good stuff.

Eli (23:33.53)
thought I'd point out some Spielberg distinctives as we like to do. For one, just fun shots in general. The opening of the box of documents and seeing everyone like peering in, fun shot like that. Loading with all close-ups of course. So many reflections. Probably leaning into the idea of like reflecting of the same problems of the world now of back then.

that sort of thing. Building tension, efficient character building. like, for instance, you know everything you need to know about K and Ben's relationship from their first meeting together. Great stuff there. The kind of injecting energy with the camera that Spielberg does. Lots of scenes that would be boring without it. And then like comedic interjections too. Some examples I wrote down.

Ben Bagdikian dropping the coins at the payphone the guy who gets the the first package of the Pentagon Papers from Sasha Spielberg And he's trying to like describe who it was as Ben's like Ben Bradley's like totally ignoring him and trying to the You know get the papers something published Ben constantly crashing K's parties is funny There's a lot of like good comedic moments in this movie

And then the last big Spielberg thing is just the framing. So many examples of how Spielberg is just excellent in filling out a frame and blocking the shot just right. So good.

Eli (25:20.761)
I did want to point out a few things that were just interesting shots or sequences. First of all, Nixon stuff, it was a great choice to just not show Nixon close up, use the far away shots of his back and use the real recordings. I thought that was a great decision.

the other I think the only other big thing was just like this the scenes throughout of Emphasizing the importance of Kay as a woman in a man's world You got like the tracking shot following her in the boardroom into the boardroom past all the women who are outside the closed doors going in through the closed doors into her sea of men for the boardroom meeting and having to hold her on in that then you have

The you know her walking down the Supreme Court steps at the end through a crowd of women watching her Which by the way was not in the script. That was like a Spielberg in the moment idea Her you know going to bed and leaving a room full of baffled men behind as we've talked about Those are some other like interesting scenes That I thought were worth bringing up

Eli (26:52.835)
Just as we're closing, I thought I would do just kind of a final thought with about, you know, going further into speaking truth to power. Add some more David Ehrlich quotes because I really liked some of how he wrote about this movie. One of them, he said, quote, The Post offers profound testament to the idea that America only works when all people are granted the voice they deserve.

It only works when everyone is held accountable and everyone can only be held accountable when the press is free to pursue the truth. In a movie that contains at least two of the best scenes that Spielberg has ever shot, watching Streep stumble across that truth makes for one of them." I thought that was really good. And then, yeah, we have to continue to speak truth to power, just in closing. We can't give our rights over to a

political party to an institution. We can't give up our right to question authority. We can't give up our right to think critically about the decisions of our politicians just because we hate the other side. We should not give up that critical thinking. And, you know, I talked about how at the time critics were wondering if this would still be relevant in 10 years, 20 years, and

It even more so is. And along those lines I have one more David Ehrlich quote. This is another long one. He said quote,

And of course, because it separates the value of journalists from the horrors they uncover, allowing us an unalloyed appreciation for their work can change the world. It's all there in the film's other all-time Spielberg moment, as Bagdikian sits down at his typewriter, right as the printing press groans to life in the basement and the whole building starts to heave. He can feel the earth moving under his feet, and so can we."

Eli (29:14.253)
I just feel like we need to learn from history and speak truth to power. Use whatever influence and power we have to give voices to people who don't. And yeah, we cannot let our political persuasions blind us and allow ourselves to be put in echo chambers. We have to listen to each other. We have to

hear these stories. We have to learn how, as Rosalind was saying, to be media literate and dig through all the crap to find, you know, the truth. It's becoming ever more important in a world of information that, you know, is twisted and turned and, you know, played with and we have to

We have to still pursue truth in the midst of that all and to pursue justice as well. And so that's kind of my final thought. That's what this movie had me thinking about. yeah, I I personally have this movie as like a mid-tier mid-tier Spielberg. I have it like four star eight out of ten. I think it's really great. I actually bumped this up. I noticed I had a three and a half star rating on it from

back in 2018 I guess when I saw the movie in theaters. And yeah, I'm like, I was looking at that and I was like, no, this is an eight out of 10 movie. This is a great movie. I have it right up there with, know, Bridgespies and Lincoln and West Side Story. I think that kind of like trio of Lincoln, Bridge of spies and The Post is a great little trio of like Spielberg showing you, you know,

great people making hard choices and doing the right thing and Yeah, those those make for a really great like it would be a good interesting marathon to throw those those three movies on back-to-back But yeah great movie And yeah, I really had fun. I'm glad Rosalyn was able to join me and You know

Eli (31:37.613)
her popping in and out on this podcast has been, yeah, she had some great insights. And I will put more, I'll put her website and social media stuff on the episode description, so you can just go click that and follow her there. But yeah, next week we have kind of a throwback movie draft.

A back we did a writers and movies draft. I thought that would be a good one to pair with this because I didn't have a new one. And so yeah, that'll be fun for that writers and movies draft to have its own episode now. And it was a fun one, so look forward to that. And then yeah, we'll pick back up with Ready Player One the next week. And it's going to be fun. I already recorded that conversation and it's going to be a good one. So looking forward to that. But until then.

I've been Eli Price and you've been listening to The Establishing Shot. We will see you next time.